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Like A Ship Without A Rudd-Er
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According to these stats, she was considered to be the 'least satisfactory' member of the Cabinet;
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// They know what democracy means just as well as you do. Just stop. //
Firstly, I won't stop arguing my position; secondly, yet again, if you think I am treating people like fools that's your problem, rather than mine; and thirdly, since we are clearly in disagreement about how democracy functions in the UK and should function, I don't see how the first part follows. Maybe it's a philosophical, rather than a factual, difference. But the simple fact of the matter is that MPs aren't doing their job if they are merely in Parliament to tick a box without giving any thought to that decision and how it plays with their conscience. Would MPs such as Sir William Cash, Andrew Bridgen, Mark Francois, etc., be quite so enthusiastic about backing No Deal if it wasn't also what they thought, in their judgement, was best?
Firstly, I won't stop arguing my position; secondly, yet again, if you think I am treating people like fools that's your problem, rather than mine; and thirdly, since we are clearly in disagreement about how democracy functions in the UK and should function, I don't see how the first part follows. Maybe it's a philosophical, rather than a factual, difference. But the simple fact of the matter is that MPs aren't doing their job if they are merely in Parliament to tick a box without giving any thought to that decision and how it plays with their conscience. Would MPs such as Sir William Cash, Andrew Bridgen, Mark Francois, etc., be quite so enthusiastic about backing No Deal if it wasn't also what they thought, in their judgement, was best?
Jim, I haven’t asked you to stop arguing your position. I’ve asked you to stop making inaccurate statements - such as Brexit was delivered with the triggering of A50 and that democracy doesn’t mean what we think it means - in the expectation that the reader will believe you. Anyone with any sense doesn't.
jim; You may be a follower of Edmund Burke's theory that leaders do no service when they chose to be popular & will become the instruments, not the guides, of the people etc.
But it doesn't hold water no matter how often that sentiment is repeated. Who would vote for a prospective MP, who when asked on the hustings, "In the event of a referendum, would you abide by the majority decision of the people?" answered, "Not if I don't like that decision"?
I think his/her political aspirations would not get far.
But it doesn't hold water no matter how often that sentiment is repeated. Who would vote for a prospective MP, who when asked on the hustings, "In the event of a referendum, would you abide by the majority decision of the people?" answered, "Not if I don't like that decision"?
I think his/her political aspirations would not get far.
// "In the event of a referendum, would you abide by the majority decision of the people?" answered, "Not if I don't like that decision"? //
Well that's the major problem with having two forms of democratic decision in conflict with each other. A prospective MP could quite reasonably say that "I will always support what I believe to be in the best interests of my constituents and my country".
To take a separate, but not totally unreasonable example, it's usually held that public support for capital punishment is either more than, or not much less than, 50%. This leads to two points:
1. The question of whether we should reintroduce capital punishment or not is unlikely ever to be put to a referendum.
2. If that question were ever put to a referendum, and the public came out in favour, I would still vote against it were I an MP.
Well that's the major problem with having two forms of democratic decision in conflict with each other. A prospective MP could quite reasonably say that "I will always support what I believe to be in the best interests of my constituents and my country".
To take a separate, but not totally unreasonable example, it's usually held that public support for capital punishment is either more than, or not much less than, 50%. This leads to two points:
1. The question of whether we should reintroduce capital punishment or not is unlikely ever to be put to a referendum.
2. If that question were ever put to a referendum, and the public came out in favour, I would still vote against it were I an MP.
// They are charging headlong into a very cunning Cummings trap. //
I have no doubt that Cummings is playing games. But the last Two cunning plans turned out to be very obvious and easy to avoid. And the outcome is that Johnson is painted into a corner.
If the cunning plan is that Boris resigns, and Cummings is gone, then the pair will not only have achieved zilch, the will have done irreparable harm to the Conservative Party.
I have no doubt that Cummings is playing games. But the last Two cunning plans turned out to be very obvious and easy to avoid. And the outcome is that Johnson is painted into a corner.
If the cunning plan is that Boris resigns, and Cummings is gone, then the pair will not only have achieved zilch, the will have done irreparable harm to the Conservative Party.
Gromit; //If the cunning plan is that Boris resigns, and Cummings is gone, then the pair will not only have achieved zilch, the will have done irreparable harm to the Conservative Party.//
If they are doing such harm, then why under this watch is the Tory rating rising on a daily basis?
jim; That is a fatuous argument because there will never be such a referendum, neither will there be one on, 'Should income tax be abandoned'
If they are doing such harm, then why under this watch is the Tory rating rising on a daily basis?
jim; That is a fatuous argument because there will never be such a referendum, neither will there be one on, 'Should income tax be abandoned'
It's not a fatuous argument at all. You asked this hypothetical candidate if they would refuse to honour the result of "a" referendum. Said candidate then suggests that it would depend on the question posed in the referendum. So it's entirely relevant to find an example where people would, I am sure, understand that candidate's reluctance to support a result they categorically disagreed with.
Indeed, taking your point further, that "there will never be a referendum on such a question": firstly, why will there not be? That's rhetorical, the answer is clear: because the Commons doesn't support it. Second question, then: is it a problem that there will not be, at least for the foreseeable future, even a sniff of such a referendum being offered?
If she can't support the government in delivering on the referendum demand, even if it is because she hasn't the ability to accept the reality that the EU is unwilling to negotiate sensibly, so no alternative deal is going to be available, then perhaps it's just as well she has moved on. The government was in a minority before she resigned and so was afterwards; so no big change. Clearly there is no large change until a general election, unless one counts leaving the EU at Halloween. Will be interesting to see which option the government counters with next.
Think it was 346, wasn't it?
Also, OG, did you even read her resignation letter? It was directed in anger at the Johnson government for not taking the search for a deal seriously, and in anger at the Johnson government for withdrawing the whip from 21 moderate Conservatives.
Put another way, can you not see what's happening to the Tories? Finally, rather than set their differences inside, or try to find some resolution, they are busy tearing themselves apart.
Also, OG, did you even read her resignation letter? It was directed in anger at the Johnson government for not taking the search for a deal seriously, and in anger at the Johnson government for withdrawing the whip from 21 moderate Conservatives.
Put another way, can you not see what's happening to the Tories? Finally, rather than set their differences inside, or try to find some resolution, they are busy tearing themselves apart.
Precisely Jim. She should know that one concentrates resource on what is possible not what is pie in the sky. As for the slinging out of those in the party who support neither the referendum result nor the party, getting slung out was all but inevitable. How weak would the PM look had he just stood there waving his finger and saying, "Naughty naughty" ?
Yes the Tories realise they have undemocrats in the party and are getting rid of them. Better a stitch in time than forevermore be seen as another antidemocrat party.
Yes the Tories realise they have undemocrats in the party and are getting rid of them. Better a stitch in time than forevermore be seen as another antidemocrat party.
//It was directed in anger at the Johnson government for not taking the search for a deal seriously,...//
There is no point in searching for a deal. There is only one deal on offer. It is totally unacceptable and it is not for discussion. Mr Johnson realises this, is intent on leaving in the only way possible and has been prevented from doing so.
//... and in anger at the Johnson government for withdrawing the whip from 21 moderate Conservatives.//
They are not "moderate Conservatives". They have voted against the government on the most important issue of the day, or perhaps of a generation. The government's position is not extreme. It is the only way to respect the result of the referendum. Any Tories wishing to oppose that should have the decency to resign the Conservative Whip, apply for the stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds and stand as an Independent in a by-election.
There is no point in searching for a deal. There is only one deal on offer. It is totally unacceptable and it is not for discussion. Mr Johnson realises this, is intent on leaving in the only way possible and has been prevented from doing so.
//... and in anger at the Johnson government for withdrawing the whip from 21 moderate Conservatives.//
They are not "moderate Conservatives". They have voted against the government on the most important issue of the day, or perhaps of a generation. The government's position is not extreme. It is the only way to respect the result of the referendum. Any Tories wishing to oppose that should have the decency to resign the Conservative Whip, apply for the stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds and stand as an Independent in a by-election.
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