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Should The Senior Officers Of The London Fire Brigade Be Prosecuted?
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//They charged the police chief for the Hillsborough disaster.//
Yes they did. And back in April the jury failed to agree a verdict on Mr Duckenfield. I believe his second trial begins next Monday.
I would be very surprised if Mr Duckenfield is convicted (though stranger things have happened). To support a charge of manslaughter the prosecution must prove gross negligence on his part. He wasn't grossly negligent. He was doing the best he could in a very difficult situation (the same as the fire service was at Grenfell). He made a wrong decision. It had tragic results. But IMHO that does not make him a criminal. It would be a lovely world if nobody made any mistakes. But the more responsibility you have, the more decisions you are required to take and so the greater the chance that you will make an error of judgement. The idea that somebody should be dragged away in chains for making a mistake whilst doing their job is abhorrent. That's why I get the hump when people who don't know what they're talking about call for it.
Yes they did. And back in April the jury failed to agree a verdict on Mr Duckenfield. I believe his second trial begins next Monday.
I would be very surprised if Mr Duckenfield is convicted (though stranger things have happened). To support a charge of manslaughter the prosecution must prove gross negligence on his part. He wasn't grossly negligent. He was doing the best he could in a very difficult situation (the same as the fire service was at Grenfell). He made a wrong decision. It had tragic results. But IMHO that does not make him a criminal. It would be a lovely world if nobody made any mistakes. But the more responsibility you have, the more decisions you are required to take and so the greater the chance that you will make an error of judgement. The idea that somebody should be dragged away in chains for making a mistake whilst doing their job is abhorrent. That's why I get the hump when people who don't know what they're talking about call for it.
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//And by that measure, NJ, The FB officer is even less culpable.//
Indeed Zacs, that is my opinion (which I tried to get across earlier). In particular with Grenfell the procedure adopted (to stay put) was the recognised best practice. In hindsight they may need to be revisited when "compartmentalisation" fails. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In the Lackanal House disaster which Ellipsis has cited, the fire spread for much the same reason as in Grenfell - combustible exterior cladding. But it was exacerbated by flammable false ceilings which had also been installed to make the properties look nice. But that said, the fire service retained its "stay put" policy because it was still considered - in the overwhelming majority of cases - to be the best strategy. It clearly wasn't in Grenfell but by the time that was realised the situation had already deteriorated seriously. That late realisation did not come from negligence. It arose because the Fire Service believed that the small insignificant fire which started the inferno had or would be contained locally. It wasn't. It may be that more discretion should be afforded to those on the ground to assess the situation and diverge from best practice if appropriate. But if they had done so and casualties occurred because of that they would find themselves facing similar accusations of negligence. In the risk-averse and increasingly litigious atmosphere in which public services operate they cannot be criticised for going "by the book".
Indeed Zacs, that is my opinion (which I tried to get across earlier). In particular with Grenfell the procedure adopted (to stay put) was the recognised best practice. In hindsight they may need to be revisited when "compartmentalisation" fails. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In the Lackanal House disaster which Ellipsis has cited, the fire spread for much the same reason as in Grenfell - combustible exterior cladding. But it was exacerbated by flammable false ceilings which had also been installed to make the properties look nice. But that said, the fire service retained its "stay put" policy because it was still considered - in the overwhelming majority of cases - to be the best strategy. It clearly wasn't in Grenfell but by the time that was realised the situation had already deteriorated seriously. That late realisation did not come from negligence. It arose because the Fire Service believed that the small insignificant fire which started the inferno had or would be contained locally. It wasn't. It may be that more discretion should be afforded to those on the ground to assess the situation and diverge from best practice if appropriate. But if they had done so and casualties occurred because of that they would find themselves facing similar accusations of negligence. In the risk-averse and increasingly litigious atmosphere in which public services operate they cannot be criticised for going "by the book".
and theres this stupid person, obviously been listening to Abbott, and Lammy.
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The advice given in fire incidents in buildings is usually--Not to attempt to use the lifts. Make your way down the stairs in an orderly manner or use the nearest fire escape. How many people would adhere to the 'orderly manner' way . Most of them would panic and surge down the stairs ,falling over one another in a blind panic ,crushing those not as agile and clambering desperately over those falling on the stairs. If everyone had stood still at Hillsborough or walked slowly down the stairs of the Twin Towers maybe just maybe more lives would have been saved. Sadly human nature doesn't always adhere to rules and regulations when panic takes over. So I don't think the Senior officers of the London Fire Brigade should be prosecuted for following the Rules and Regulations .
> the fire service retained its "stay put" policy because it was still considered - in the overwhelming majority of cases - to be the best strategy. It clearly wasn't in Grenfell ...
And that's the point. There were 8 years between Lakanal and Grenfell, 8 years in which the "stay put" policy could have been amended to take account of the cases in which it wasn't the best strategy. But it wasn't and, as a result, 72 people died and more than 70 others were injured in Grenfell Tower.
And that's the point. There were 8 years between Lakanal and Grenfell, 8 years in which the "stay put" policy could have been amended to take account of the cases in which it wasn't the best strategy. But it wasn't and, as a result, 72 people died and more than 70 others were injured in Grenfell Tower.
Spath
As a retired London Fireman, I will ask you a question : have you any knowledge of firefighting and firefighting procedures ? In my 25 years I attended 3 major fires in tower blocks. In each case the stay put procedure was implemented - nobody died. If they had been told to evacuate at Grenfell, IMHO more would have died in the ensuing crush on the single, narrow staircase. Finally what would you have done in the senior fire officers position ? You won't be able to answer that because I believe you have no firefighting knowledge.
FBG40
As a retired London Fireman, I will ask you a question : have you any knowledge of firefighting and firefighting procedures ? In my 25 years I attended 3 major fires in tower blocks. In each case the stay put procedure was implemented - nobody died. If they had been told to evacuate at Grenfell, IMHO more would have died in the ensuing crush on the single, narrow staircase. Finally what would you have done in the senior fire officers position ? You won't be able to answer that because I believe you have no firefighting knowledge.
FBG40
Now to be addressed as Fireman Spam of Trumpton. Who hasn't the courage to answer five requests to tell us of his expertise and training as a knowledgeable firefighter. I doubt he has the courage to follow in the steps of a fire fighter facing a raging inferno.
Fireman spam who opens a thread about his lovely new trainers getting spattered with dog poo whilst doing his bob a job. Some hero.
Fireman spam who opens a thread about his lovely new trainers getting spattered with dog poo whilst doing his bob a job. Some hero.
About 20 years ago I was, and still am, living in a 13 story apartment building in which a fire started. We were told to leave the building by the stair-wells, and obviously not the elevators. The lights were still working, and there was a strong smell of smoke in the air but no actual visible smoke; however, I can still remember feeling a definite sense of urgency amongst us leaving the building. The older people were struggling with the stairs, and the younger ones were pretty much running down oblivious to the slower people and their difficulties. I remember thinking what the situation would have been if the lights had been out and there was actually smoke in the stairwells. Anyway, it turned out that the fire had been confined to one apartment and unfortunately the wheel-chair occupant had died.
I would like to add to this "conversation" a piece from the Independent written by a Firefighter who attended Grenfell Tower. I hope it will enlighten those who read it - it's quite long.
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FBG40
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FBG40
An excellent article fbg40. Thanks for digging it out.
Alas, I fear, there is one arm chair crusader who thinks he knows better. The nearest he has got to firefighting is blowing out a swan vesta.
It's always better to read it from the perspective of a professional who actually knows what he is talking about.
Alas, I fear, there is one arm chair crusader who thinks he knows better. The nearest he has got to firefighting is blowing out a swan vesta.
It's always better to read it from the perspective of a professional who actually knows what he is talking about.
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