Face Masks

[retrocop]

It appears that the government has now decided that face masks have some efficacy and are suggesting it would be a condition when lock down ends for workers to wear them and when using Public Transport
Our London Mayor is now saying he will INSIST the public wear them. About 10 days ago his LT workers were crying out for them and he told them,at the time, they were not necessary but gave them gloves instead.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/will-we-all-have-to-wear-a-face-mask-after-lockdown-ministers-discuss-plans-to-force-workers-to-wear-protective-gear-at-work-and-on-public-transport/ar-BB12KnUf?li=BBoPWjQ

[woofgang]

essentially they MAY help if you mask sick patients PROPERLY, change them frequently, make sure the person is using the mask properly and that its is removed and cleaned or disposed of properly. The masks have to be close fitting and made to a proper standard.

[woofgang]

very small sample in this new research but I still think its useful.
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

[NickorWan]

Confusing isn't it, woofgang? You can search and find results that back up your view whether you think they help or think they don't.

[Ellipsis]

My understanding is that facemasks do more to protect others from you than protect you from others, and therefore they're only really helpful in slowing the spread of the virus when a lot of people are wearing them. And then they have to be wearing them, and using them, correctly ...

i.e. it's more of a "herd protection" thing than an "individual protection" thing.

[woofgang]

I think for personal choice then its up to the individual....although any member of the public who comes near me with a nice warm moist mask or scarf on will be told to back off in no uncertain terms! Where I think the research, reading it carefully and so on becomes important is when people or organisations are saying what others should do. From what I have seen, the evidence for general public mask wearing is weak and when you add in the other factors....improper use....improper cleaning/disposal...home made masks, use of scarves and so on.....I would say that the evidence is not there for advising people to do it. The last link I posted seems to me to be very important...it echoes PP's comments about the reserch he mentioned using actual people and cough plates.
I think there are serious risks to doing something that makes people feel safer when it actually has little or no effect.

[woofgang]

Ellipsis, the link I posted actually refutes that.

[teacake44]

German Government advise public to wear face masks. :0)

[woofgang]

and?

[Ellipsis]

woof, I think the surgical environment is different to the outdoor environment.

In surgery, everyone is highly trained and (ideally) they have access to a large supply of fresh masks that they are changing frequently. In this environment, wearing a mask protects the wearer.

Outdoors, with the general public, they may have one or two masks (certainly if we get to the point where we're using government issued masks - Singapore for example supplied every citizen with one mask). People won't be highly trained. This is the environment I'm talking about when I say that wearing a mask will help to protect others more than the wearer.

[teacake44]

^^ spot on.

[woofgang]

even though the research link that I posted had actual covid patients coughing wearing masks and proved that it didn't stop the virus?

[fiction-factory]

If mask wearing becomes commonplace it's essential that people still take all the other measures in full regarding social distancing, self isolating, regular hand washing and cleaning of surfaces. If we find people with a cough venturing out wearing a mask instead of staying indoors then the benefit is lost.
I'll go with the medical evidence but unfortunately it is unclear or certainly not at all consistent, so maybe if the case is marginal either way we may just have to take a punt and make it compulsory outdoors or certainly on public transport/shops, or go with our gut instincts if the lack of scientific consensus continues.
One newspaper has details of how to make your own - I think flannel plus elastic bands- so you could try wearing one and let us know how you get on

[Peter Pedant]

// but I still think its useful.
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiven blah blah rubbish rubbish trolled-comparison. \\

four patients - crap - BUT did anyone notice Petri dishes = cough plates in teh script ?
mentioned by me days ago and still used after 50y....

to quote TC - I was right all along

[Peter Pedant]

// 'll go with the medical evidence but unfortunately it is unclear or certainly not at all consistent, so maybe if the case is marginal either//

FF being steeped in maff - wants a decision node - yes - - - or no
but of course the world is full of experiments - yes or inconclusive/loops/ gets stuck in a rut

but boys and girls - if you have looked for evidence and it isnt there altho it should be if it were true

then cant you decide against

experiment after experiment has shown that the virus gets thro and so the question remains - yeah how much tho, are they infectious, yes but it is much less and so on

there isnt any evidence masks work
and there wasnt 50 y ago....

[NickorWan]

The tests on woofgang’s link check the virus has got through the mask and reached 20cm from the mask. It says ‘large-sized particles, which would be expected to be deposited on the inner surface despite high velocity’ and ‘We do not know whether masks shorten the travel distance of droplets during coughing.’ Which actually are the two main points which make some think there is benefit in everyone wearing one.

[Ellipsis]

> even though the research link that I posted had actual covid patients coughing wearing masks and proved that it didn't stop the virus?

It's not about stopping a cough, it's about slowing down and stopping the spread of the virus, by lowering the transmission rate, ideally to less than 1. The thinking is that masks, worn by all, would contribute towards that.

E.g. if a cough transports the virus ten feet when the cougher is without a mask, and two feet when they're wearing a mask, then a mask is helpful to you if you're standing eight feet from the cougher. The cougher will infect fewer people, and that will ultimately stop the virus (for a while, at least).

[woofgang]

but you should be 2m away anyway

[NickorWan]

That's the point, though, woofgang, isn't it? If you are at least two metres away from someone who coughs, do you get less of their cough droplets than you would if they weren't wearing a mask?

[Tilly2]

I have noticed, when shopping, that those people who are wearing masks seem to be less diligent about social distancing. I suppose they feel they are safe. :-(