Is Devolution A Disaster?

[ToraToraTora]

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-triggers-scottish-fury-and-clash-with-sturgeon-after-branding-devolution-a-disaster-12134368

[THECORBYLOON]

TTT, are you struggling to find evidence to back up your claim about Nicola Sturgeon?

[pixie374]

Whether it 'should be' or not is very subjective, ellipsis. The point is... a majority is enough. Yes, it may not be legally binding- but would be suicidal for politicians to ignore.
Out of interest, why should it be anything other than over 50%? What would make a minority decision better, considering we apparently do "democracy" here?

[Old_Geezer]

Having it a set % over 50% gives it hysteresis and avoids flip flopping. But then you have to wake up a bigger % of the public.

[TrevorThePug]

Minimum 85% turnout.

Why are you so against letting them have another referendum.

[ToraToraTora]

ellipsis: "A 52% vote for independence is not really enough ... it should be more like 66%. " - right oh so to leave we need 66% but to stay 50% will do??

[agchristie]

Dont u think Boris has enuf on his plate? Hes strugglin as he is spinning just one plate...

[Jackdaw33]

Referenda are in essence alien to the British constitution. They were unknown until Harold Wilson held one on EEC membership. That was a purely political move to placate the warring factions within the Labour Party. There have been only two further nationwide referenda: a) on the changing of the FPTP electoral system (resoundingly defeated) and
b) whether we should remain in the EU.

The latter was again purely for political reasons, to keep at bay UKIP. Unfortunately, Cameron miscalculated the result.

[ToraToraTora]

pixie; "That would make a minority decision better, considering we apparently do "democracy" here? " - well some of us do, others like it when they get the "correct" answer!

[Ellipsis]

> Out of interest, why should it be anything other than over 50%?

England and Scotland have been in a binding union since 1707. Suppose that one day, many years from now obviously, Scotland has a vote and 52% of 72% of the voting population decide to end that union, persuaded by a charismatic leader in Scotland at that instant in time, while a buffoon led England at that same instant. That is hardly a stable way to decide a "forever policy" - it's not like you can undo it four years later if you realise it was an error and that the charismatic leader was indeed very charismatic, but wrong.

So for a long term change, you'd probably look for something better than 52% of 72%, especially when the known reality of the status quo can never be sold in quite such an exciting way by a dull and boring leader as the sunlit uplands of the dream by a charismatic rebel.

[pixie374]

True, ttt... the public obviously need to be told the right answer before they are allowed to vote....
Jackdaw, Wilson was a lifetime ago. The public understands what a referendum is. That's what matters.

[agchristie]

"The public understands what a referendum is. That's what matters."

Not quite Pix! They have to understand the question itself with all those issues that folk dont even think of let alone understand!

[Jackdaw33]

^ Quite profound. At the moment parliament can only be dissolved if 66% vote for it.

[Jackdaw33]

My answer @ 13.45 was to Ellipsis.

[agchristie]

Look at all the untruths from both sides of the camp whatever the question is.Brexit,Scots Independence,etc

[pixie374]

Ellipsis... I don't agree. One vote per person is much more democratic than "seats" etc... where you can't often make any difference. If "most" voters alive, want a change, why would that be wrong?
People who don't know or don't care, will probably not vote. Fair enough ... but those that do... can.

[pixie374]

Ag, they understand what a referendum is. It isn't compulsory to vote, if you don't understand the question, or aren't interested.

[ToraToraTora]

Pixie: "True, ttt... the public obviously need to be told the right answer before they are allowed to vote.... " - or, as many would also like to do, we could use the EUSSR tried and trusted method of the "neverendum"!

[retrocop]

Avatar Image pixie374
//Ag, they understand what a referendum is. //

That made me smile. There were loads of remainers whining they didn't understand the question or that it wasn't correctly worded when the vote they thought was in the bag didn't go their way.

[pixie374]

Retro... see Darwin :-). It couldn't even been much clearer, surely?

[Jackdaw33]

I was a student at the time we joined the EEC. Heath set his face resolutely against a referendum on the specious grounds that the people spoke through parliament. He used bullying tactics to keep the Tory rebels in check, threatening a general election if he lost. In the event the Bill was passed by 8 votes, and had it not been for the Liberals it would have been defeated.