Nightingale Closures

[brainiac]

We're told that there are now more people in hospital with Covid-19 than at the peak in April, so why on earth are they dismantling the Nightingale hospitals that were created at great cost? If it's lack of staff (as is said), then why a lack of staff now, and not when they were created?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9095087/Londons-Nightingale-hospital-quietly-broken-arent-medics.html

[New Judge]

//I think that we should all be deeply grateful that they were never needed.//

I don't think we know yet whether or not they will needed. There are now as many people in dock as there were at the peak in April.

//Surely there would be enough staff if they involved the Royal Army Medical Corps and offered jobs to student nurses and retired nurses/doctors?//

The RAMC has a total strength of around 1,200 officers and 2,800 ORs (I've left out the 400 assigned to the Royal Army Veterinary Corps though with my trust and confidence in vets being far higher than that I have in human sawbones, perhaps they should be included). Assuming that they cannot all be diverted from military to civilian duties there is not a great number that can be added to the NHS strength.

A far greater resource to be tapped, certainly as far as the vaccination programme goes, but also with the general nursing/doctor resource is that of retired medics. However, as I related in another thread yesterday, the recruitment process of those people has already shown signs of being an unmitigated shambles so it's perhaps wise that the Nightingale facilities are just quietly packed up an forgotten about.

[bobbinwales]

//had to complete a form online over 20 pages long asking amongst other stuff, their awareness of child abuse, safeguarding, racial issues and a whole host of other relatively spurious subjects. //

Am not sure there "spurious" but your opinions as valid as mine- but right or wrong lots of employers of staff &volunteers in many areas after be able to show they are DBS checked and/or have had 'relavant' training in somethings on a list that can include safegaurding, first aid, h&S, equal opportunities- whether its hospitals, schools, care homes, social workers, charity shops and even shops, any where peopel come into contact with the public

[woofgang]

I don't think it was a PR stunt although of course if you are going to do something like that, then you will publicise it. Worst case scenario (thousands of people needing ventilated care all at once) plus the scenes from Europe where medical staff were saying they had to choose who got a ventilator and who was left to die untreated......well what would you have done?
The reality was that we learned some good stuff (dexamethasone) and some less good stuff (many people die on ventilation) and as with other medical emergencies, new knowledge changes plans. And hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[pixie374]

Woof //the issue is that if you go back as a doctor/nurse/occupational Therapist or physio etcet, you have to go back as the WHOLE job and that includes all the required certification.//

Yes, exactly. While people are still working in certain areas- you know they have to already have those qualifications and certificates etc. It's when you are asking people to come back from retirement, that they may be out of date and need to catch up.
I wouldn't describe them as 'spurious" MAP... they are all necessary.

[woofgang]

NJ you don't need doctors to vaccinate. Paying them doctor's wages to come back and be doctors is just a waste of money.

[New Judge]

//Just found the letter I referred to.//

You probably mean this one, minesapint:

"I am a retired GP and attempted to volunteer as a Covid vaccinator through the approved website last week. This proved impossible.

I am relatively recently retired having relinquished by registration with the GMC in 2017. After completing large sections of the application form, I reached the section at the end entitled "Documents to upload or sign". I could go no further.

Some documents are obviously needed to confirm my identity for example, but I fail to see a necessity for documents proving attendance for Conflict Resolution, Equality Diversity and Human Rights, Fire Safety, and Preventing Radicalisation. The list contains 21 documents to be uploaded.

I defy anyone, even doctors currently working in the NHS to provide all of these.

The most likely explanation is that the department responsible for recruiting vaccinators has not actually considered this form. It will prevent almost every willing applicant from being recruited."

There are plenty of others. I'm compiling an anthology but here's another:

"Speed of vaccination is essential and as a retired GP I have offered my services.

However, I have been told that I would have to re-register as a doctor, get child safety clearance and do a course on resuscitation. Retired nurses have to do the same.

Uncluttered by red tape, retirees like me could volunteer to give the injections. Professionally done it is so easy and we would keep the queues moving. But sadly that doesn’t seem possible."

I am becoming increasingly convinced (as I thought from the outset) that the NHS and the Civil Service should not be let near the vaccination programme. There is talk in the press today of 2 million shots a week being required to quell the pandemic. By my reckoning they will be lucky to reach 10% of that figure unless a dramatic change in the mindset among those administering it takes place.

[TonyV]

It bugged me when I visited a certain hospital ( I will not name it ) there were blood splashs on the floor, but walk past directors stairwell - carpet with pile so deep you could lose yourself in it and fresh flowers on the landing.

[woofgang]

NJ yes they do and so they should! You can't go back and be a bit of a doctor or a bit of a nurse. You have to have all the recent qualifications plus current professional registration. Any doctor or nurse can apply to go back a support worker...they will need less qualifications and will be paid less.

[bobbinwales]

Am sure that if the vaccinnations was contracted out to non/insufficiently qualified/certified people thered be complaints about privatisation and all sorts of law suits if people died because of unqualified people to do resucitations for allergic reactions or because someone sticks a needle into main arteries.
Still, you'd think it should be of possable to set up large vaccination centres where there has to be a presence on site of say 10% doctors and nurses , and where all staff get a quick 2 hour training course on things like diversity, handling conflict alongside there vaccinnation training.

[minesapint]

Pixie374, I was referring specifically to the three employment categories that AuntPollyGrey referred to.

[calmck]

A retired nurse should still be able to give a vaccination.

[Sqad]

//////Still, you'd think it should be of possable to set up large vaccination centres where there has to be a presence on site of say 10% doctors and nurses , and where all staff get a quick 2 hour training course on things like diversity, handling conflict alongside there vaccinnation training./////

That is all one needs....in a nutshell, one could teach the local idiot to vaccinate a person in 10 mins.

[pixie374]

Fair enough, map... but those aren't necessarily the people we most "need" as extras. Woof's posts, I totally agree with. Bobbin, anyone can do a vaccination with just a moment of training. You don't need a doctor or a nurse even.

[pixie374]

Calm.... red tape, insurance etc. People have got so much more likely to sue or complain, everyone has to be able to cover themselves everywhere. Common sense doesn't count.

[bobbinwales]

//Bobbin, anyone can do a vaccination with just a moment of training. You don't need a doctor or a nurse even.//
Maybe you misunderstood. Whilst I'd prefer a retired/current/trainee nurse or doctor or even vet, am saying that 90% of the staff at such centres just need vaccinnation training. It seems right to me though that these should be a at least one (maybe more on big sites) qualified certified current doctor/nurse on site though for emergencies and to handle say queries about allergies or underlying health conditions.

[woofgang]

nope. If a nurse is nursing as a nurse then he or she (same as the doctor) has certain responsibilities. Its not just a question of "giving a vaccination" there is also professional judgement and responsibility. I am not sure about covid as its a new vaccine but when I was at work in a community team (Nurses, OTs, Physios and support staff) we taught each other basic profession specific skills and the professionals in the team took clinical responsibility for supervising other staff in the skills they had taught them. The community nurses taught team members how to give flu vaccines to our housebound service users. They had to satisfy themselves that the non nurse was competent and to decide which patients could safely be left to non nurses and which they needed to see themselves. You can't "just give a jab" without either being properly qualified and certificated or being under the clinical supervision of someone who is. As I said, professional staff can choose to request to go back into unqualified positions and be under supervision. Less effort and outlay for them but less pay.

[calmck]

Lack of common sense and removal of Matrons from hospitals and hospital trusts has played a big part contributing to the situation in the NHS even before Covid

[Sqad]

bobbin...exactly, but that supervising doctor needs the correct certification and mustn't be any aTom Dock or Abdul.

[pixie374]

I didn't misunderstand, bobbin. I said it is easy. Yes, you need qualified staff around in case of any reaction. But that only means getting patients to wait 15 mins or so after, in case they react.

[pixie374]

Calmk, common sense isn't allowed any more. It doesn't tick any boxes. You HAVE to go by the rules.... unless you want to be heavily sued.