Nightingale Closures

[brainiac]

We're told that there are now more people in hospital with Covid-19 than at the peak in April, so why on earth are they dismantling the Nightingale hospitals that were created at great cost? If it's lack of staff (as is said), then why a lack of staff now, and not when they were created?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9095087/Londons-Nightingale-hospital-quietly-broken-arent-medics.html

[New Judge]

//You have to have all the recent qualifications…//

Explain to me, then, why a doctor who has been retired for three years needs to have “all the recent qualifications” to administer an injection. Does lack of them make a doctor unable to carry out that task? Also run past me why they need to be proficient in equality and human rights. Last of all, why would they need child safety clearance when there is no intention of extending the programme to children and children will not be allowed into the venue?

// I woudn't employ a gas or electricity technician in my house who hadn't been at work for 3 years!//

Then you’d be foolish – especially if you had no electricity and your freezer was defrosting with a couple of hundred pounds worth of food inside. My uncle was an electrician for more than thirty years before he changed careers in his late 40s. About five years later he replaced the consumer unit in my house. He had no problems whatsoever with the latest regulations and I had no qualms about him doing the job.

I accept that each centre may need an overseeing doctor who is still practicing to deal with any unusual circumstances. I do not accept that a doctor who has been retired for just three years needs the sort of certification mentioned in Dr Barker’s letter in order to administer an injection. This country needs to get its backside into gear to get this programme rolled out. It needs a “JFDI” attitude and leaving it in the hands of Civil Servants who are accustomed to having the luxury of discussing everything in committee and sub-committee for six months before anything happens simply will not do.

[bobbinwales]

Were going over the same ground now. Theres a difference between someone who just gives jabs and an overseeing doctor who does need full qualifications

[New Judge]

//If you are "volunteering" as a doctor and a patient collapses in front of you, you would expect to have to deal with it (and therefore be up to date).//

So would Dr Barker, whose letter I mentioned, be any less capable of handling a patient who had collapsed in front of her, be any less capable now of dealing with that situation now than she would have been on the day she retired just three years ago? Bear in mind that anybody who administers the Covid vaccination will have to be trained in its use and potential problems because it is new to everybody. So why would she be less able to cope than anybody else who had received the same training?

I'm sorry but this is descending into nonsense. There is no indication that there is any more likelihood of widespread problems that follow from receiving this vaccination than there is from any other. Certainly none that require those who administer it to prove their competence in equality and diversity.

[bednobs]

you can go out of date very quickly new judge (not that GPs get much experience in emergency situations). Im not talking of covid side effects, what if someone collapsed in the queue with a heart attack? You would hope that any doctor employed in the vicinity would be up to date

[bednobs]

also and employers "vicarious liability" insurance would want to know that the people they are employing to be doctors are up to date i suppose

[woofgang]

NJ you really are not listening are you? If unregistered doctors want to volunteer without reregistering and updating they can....they might even be able to give vaccinations...but they won't be working as doctors but as support staff and will be under supervision and be paid as support staff. If they want to go back as doctors, and be paid as doctors then they need to have the same certification and so on as all the other doctors that they will be working alongside.
And if I employed an uncertificated electrician in my house and it all went wrong, then my house insurance would be unhappy and would make me unhappy too....I'd rather lose the freezer worth of food (which btw is also insured).

[New Judge]

//Im not talking of covid side effects, what if someone collapsed in the queue with a heart attack?//

Which, of course, they could do whilst queuing to get into a bank or a supermarket or even waiting for a bus. You may as well say you need fully qualified doctors in those situations too. A doctor (practising or retired) would assist in any venue where somebody collapses. To suggest they must necessarily be present whilst people are queuing at a vaccination centre in case of that eventuality is somewhat missing the point.

But in any case, what about the apparent need for equality and diversity competence and child safety clearance?

I'm sorry bednobs but if if mindsets such as you demonstrate are present among those tasked with arranging for two million people a week to receive an injection, the whole country will be sorely disappointed.

[woofgang]

@bedknobs, very true. The NHS coughs up enough over malpractice claims!

[bednobs]

i am not saying that though NJ and im not quite sure if you are willfully misunderstanding or just being your usual self, i am saying similarly to woofgang that if you want to employ doctors (even if they are volunteering) you have to make sure they are up to date. It is NOT the same situation as standing in a bank queue at all

[tiggerblue10]

This is probably a silly question but can vets and vet nurses assist with ventilators and also vaccine administration?

[bednobs]

it's like if you are employing a bus driver (or being a bus driver on a voluntary basis). If they crash and kill people, no good saying "well i haven't got an up to date driving licence" as a defence :)

[New Judge]

//NJ you really are not listening are you?//

I think I am. Let's see if I can make it easy:

1. You don't need to be a registered doctor to administer a vaccine.

2. A recently retired GP will have all the necessary skills to administer a vaccine.

3. The said doctor, armed with those skills, should easily be able to accomplish the task of vaccinating patients, given the same training as (say) a practice nurse would receive on the specific vaccine to do the same task.

4. Do we want competent people to help do this job or do we want to put them off by asking them to provide certification, much of it utterly unnecessary (still no responses about the equality and diversity certification or the child safety clearance) and much of which they may not be able to immediately lay their hands on?

In normal times I might agree with you (though not over the two specific items I mentioned). But these are not normal times. This is allegedly an emergency. The vaccine is available; the people available to administer it are but need to be brought together quickly. This is not the time to fanny about with unnecessary paperwork.

[calmck]

As previously mentioned I have not worked as a nurse for a number of years but a couple of hears ago I revived a child who had fallen into a swimming pool and performed cpr until emit arrived

[bobbinwales]

Are you moving the goalposts judge? Dont disagree with 1 2 3 to do limited duties with short training & under supervision but if they want to be there as a doctor with all responsibilitys and accountability then thats a diffrent matter, update proof of competence is needed

[woofgang]

calmk "As previously mentioned I have not worked as a nurse for a number of years but a couple of hears ago I revived a child who had fallen into a swimming pool and performed cpr until emit arrived"

yes but you weren't there employed as a pool attendant.

[woofgang]

NJ what bobbin said.

[eve1974]

A PR exercise - whilst we all (myself included) applauded them at the time what was the point if there was (a) a lack of suitably qualified staff and (b) the staff that are qualified need to jump thru hoops just to get to work there. (bearing in mind these icu staff are already exhausted as it is). That money could have been better spent...in numerous (covid related) ways. who will answer for this?

[eve1974]

//Do we want competent people to help do this job or do we want to put them off by asking them to provide certification, much of it utterly unnecessary (still no responses about the equality and diversity certification or the child safety clearance) and much of which they may not be able to immediately lay their hands on?
// agree NJ - b and as you say these are not normal times!

[Peter Pedant]

erm we have all forgotten
Cardedd was asking medical students to do ITU proning a few days ago

and I think the wonderful tashie - who always gets it full in the face when she posts here - reactivated her skills and did sessions, innit?

re-registering by the way is GMC and not employers

[jno]

I trust Baldric is not performing medical duties under Tashi's name?