Nightingale Closures

[brainiac]

We're told that there are now more people in hospital with Covid-19 than at the peak in April, so why on earth are they dismantling the Nightingale hospitals that were created at great cost? If it's lack of staff (as is said), then why a lack of staff now, and not when they were created?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9095087/Londons-Nightingale-hospital-quietly-broken-arent-medics.html

[bednobs]

isn't "ITU proning" ljust lying someone on their front? i would have thought that could be within the skills of a medical student (who do get vicarious liability i guess and i would also guess they have up to date ethics/PREVENT training)

[New Judge]

//Dont disagree with 1 2 3 to do limited duties with short training & under supervision but if they want to be there as a doctor with all responsibilitys and accountability then thats a diffrent matter, update proof of competence is needed//

//NJ what bobbin said.//

Gawd this is hard work!

I'm not suggesting that retired doctors work at the vaccination centres as doctors. I'm suggesting that, since they've probably spent many years giving people injections for various reasons and are unlikely to have lost that particular skill, that they work in vaccination centres to give people injections. It's not that difficult to grasp. I'm not moving any goal posts. I never suggested they should work as doctors. I simply suggested that since they have the skill to give people injections they simply do that. People are needed to give other people injections - urgently. Retired doctors can do that with minimal training, mainly just in the specifics of the vaccine involved. They simply need to demonstrate their competence to do that. How they are supervised and managed is another matter but we need monkeys, not organ grinders.

[237SJ]

NJ - my friend's SIL was a GP until fairly recently. She had enough of the NHS anyway but the last straw for her was the fact that she needed an accreditation to be able to give an injection. That's the way it is these days (in most industries - not just the medical world)

[woofgang]

Nj I think we are violently in agreement.....the thing is that what the doctors are applying to do is be doctors again which is a different matter.

[eve1974]

and despite all the to-ing and fro-ing of whether it is / isn't correct to have staff prove their competence via up to date. paperwork....the fact remains that the nightingales are a great big (expensive) chocolate fireguard...useless due to lack of staff.

[minesapint]

I agree 100% with New Judge over this.

Those on here that speak of the need for accreditation and suchlike in order to administer the vaccination in these desperate times are talking nonsense. If they have the competence from previous experience, they should be welcomed with open arms. It wasn't that long ago that the government was talking about reeling in vets, veterinary nurses and virtually anyone capable of handling a syringe to assist with the vaccination programme. Clearly, they had in mind a way of circumventing the nonsense of accredition requirements for the good of us all during these desperate times. How many more people are going to die while bean counters pore over qualifications on application forms? Talk is cheap, but when your nearest and dearest succumb to this disease, it puts it all in a different perspective.

I couldn't care less if I was summoned to my local vet's surgery when it was my time to have the vaccination. They are more than capable of administering the jab. Common sense should prevail here as I have no desire to become seriously ill or die simply because I insisted on being vaccinated by a currently registered medical practitioner.

[237SJ]

^ It doesn't really make any difference whether you think people on here "Are talking nonsense" That is the way it is.

[minesapint]

Of course 237SJ. I sincerely hope that no one will be able to look back in years to come and think of a relative who died simply because that person refused to be vaccinated by anyone other than a up to date, fully registered and insured physician or nurse.
How far do we have to go down this road before we accept that vaccination expertise in this matter is not confined to currently registered practitioners?

[Atheist]

Bednobs, I think I heard on the radio (Radio 4) that proning could involve up to 7 people to do the manoeuvre, and they need to know how to do it.

[bobbinwales]

Woofgang it seems clear to me new judge and we must be at cross purposes or his been deliberately obtuse. Personally from experience we re wasting are time on this point.

[woofgang]

ok last try. Its not about who can or should vaccinate. As I have said if doctors are happy to go back as vaccinators under clinical supervision and BE PAID, SUPERVISED and TREATED as clinically supervised vaccinators, then they could...same with vets, retired nurses, pharmacists and so on. What they can't do is go back to work and Hey Presto! they are doctors again, supervising others and being paid and treated as doctors which is what those who have written to the papers seem to expect.

[bobbinwales]

Spot on Woofgang. Good summary, you express it better than me. Hopefully newjudge sees and agrees

[woofgang]

bobbin DO NOT hold your breath :)

[bednobs]

it doesnt surprise me that it might take 7 people to prone an unconscious patient. It's not a clinical skill for all 7 people involved though

[Atheist]

Bednobs, no but it's still people present to do the job. Can't do care without bods to actually do it, including cleaners, porters and all the rest (even managers to organise things).

[bednobs]

i just looked at NHS jobs for "covid vaccinators". They don't want trained people - they are looking for members of the public to be trained to do it "No previous healthcare experience is required as full training will be delivered via a combination of remote e-learning and practical face-to-face sessions to ensure you are completely comfortable and capable with..." so christ knows where that doctor was getting his/her info from

[bednobs]

atheist i agree. I was responding to peter pedant who seemed to be saying that medial students were being asked to do it, so what's the problem with doctors going back to practice. I was just pointing out proning is NOT a clinical skill within a dctor's remit At least that's how i read it. I could be wrong tho

[woofgang]

bednobs, I used to teach patient moving and handling. If doing a manoevre that requires more than one staff member then no they don't all need to be clinicians. They do need the ability to work very closely in a team though and not only do they need to know what to do and when to do it and only do it when the leader says so, they also need to know what to do when something goes wrong. In many ways its easier to train a vaccinator.

[woofgang]

"so christ knows where that doctor was getting his/her info from"
as I said I suspect that that doctor was wanting to go back and be a doctor, not a lowly vaccinator.

[New Judge]

//Woofgang it seems clear to me new judge and we must be at cross purposes or his been deliberately obtuse.//

I'm not being obtuse at all and it seems woofgang and I (and probably you as well) are broadly in agreement. The misunderstanding came at 13:59 when woofy said:

"...the issue is that if you go back as a doctor/nurse/occupational Therapist or physio etcet, you have to go back as the WHOLE job and that includes all the required certification."

That's almost certainly true. But in the letter from Dr Barker to which I referred at 14:11 (where she explained the documentation she had been asked to provide) she specifically stated that she had volunteered her services as a Covid vaccinator. Not as a doctor, not as a nurse or anything else but as a vaccinator. Pure and simple. Somebody who can put a needle into somebody's arm without hurting them too much, without breaking the needle and without poisoning them. Just where are the people who devise these recruitment processes coming from if she is required to provide competence in Equality and Human Rights, Diversity, Conflict Resolution and the Prevention of Radicalisation before she is allowed to administer an injection (which she's probably been doing for thirty years) at the time of a national emergency? It's absolutely preposterous.

The people who are depending on a slick rollout of the vaccine to free them from the severe restrictions they have been living under for most of the last none months (i.e. almost everybody) need to be made aware of this utter nonsense that is jeopardising. Because "that's the way it is" doesn't mean it has to continue to be like that.