Motoring2 mins ago
Is This What Brexiteers Wanted?
Queues at Dover:
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I wonder how many of those caught up in the queues voted for Brexit. We travelled to France dozens of times when we were in the EU and were never held up at French border control (which was often unmanned as it didn't need to check anything). I hopr Brexiteers are sent to the back of the queue.
https:/
I wonder how many of those caught up in the queues voted for Brexit. We travelled to France dozens of times when we were in the EU and were never held up at French border control (which was often unmanned as it didn't need to check anything). I hopr Brexiteers are sent to the back of the queue.
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Thought it'd be interesting to see what Daily Mail commentators say about this.
The top rated responders seem to have sussed it. This its what leavers voters wanted - control of our borders. And this is what they've got. It's a two-way thing.
https:/
The top rated responders seem to have sussed it. This its what leavers voters wanted - control of our borders. And this is what they've got. It's a two-way thing.
https:/
//it’s clips of Johnson and government ministers telling us there will be absolutely no problems at Dover as a result of Brexit.
Give it a go, it’ll enlighten you..//
I don’t need enlightenment. If you adopt the philosophy that I have – that is that all politicians tell lies – you would have paid no heed to anything Johnson or anybody else told you about the likely consequences of Brexit. It was as clear as day to anybody who thought about it, that many remaining EU nations – some more than others – would make our leaving as troublesome and as inconvenient as they could. There is, of course, no reason whatsoever for this. Incredible as it may seem, many countries outside the EU trade perfectly well with it (so far as the EU’s protectionist regime permits, that is) and their citizens have no trouble travelling to and from it. Normal countries do not go out of their way to hinder mutually beneficial trade and tourism. But EU countries cannot, by any stretch, be included under the heading of "Normal."
So, anybody who believed most of the claptrap – uttered by both sides – that was spouted during the referendum campaign have only themselves to blame if they considered that when they cast their vote. The Leave campaign over stated the simplicity of the task whilst the Remain campaign over stated the dire consequences they said would ensue if we left. Both told lies and it was for the electorate to make up their own minds based on what they knew, not what they were promised.
So my thinking is by no means woolly. I have wanted this country to leave the EU since 1992. In fact it is more clear than almost anybody’s. I believe the EU is a pernicious, protectionist organisation and it was not in the UK’s interest to be a member under any circumstances. Nothing any politician has told me has caused me to alter that belief, especially nothing that was uttered by either side in the campaign. So when I stand accused of falling for lies I get the hump because the way I cast my vote was not influenced by any politician – liar or otherwise (if indeed there is another variety).
//We're trying to renege on the NI protocol which we negotiated.//
No country should be bound by a Treaty that causes it such severe trouble as the NI Protocol does. It has a clause within it that provides for its suspension (which the EU almost implemented in 2021) so we must either implement that clause or ditch the Protocol in its entirety.
//Or is that the fault of the French too?//
No, It’s mainly the fault of the EU. The NI Protocol was drafted on the understanding that it would be implemented pragmatically. Its aim is to protect the EU’s Single Market, not to destroy trade between different parts of the UK (though why those signing it believed it would be operated in Good Faith when the other signatory was the EU is anybody’s guess). There is no reason why it shouldn't work but it clearly doesn't. There is no need for goods dispatched from GB destined to remain in NI to be checked – it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a method of discrimination. Similarly there is no need for the EU to undertake 20% of all its customs checks on the 0.5% of its imports that cross the Irish Sea. But pragmatism has been trumped – predictably – by ideology.
Give it a go, it’ll enlighten you..//
I don’t need enlightenment. If you adopt the philosophy that I have – that is that all politicians tell lies – you would have paid no heed to anything Johnson or anybody else told you about the likely consequences of Brexit. It was as clear as day to anybody who thought about it, that many remaining EU nations – some more than others – would make our leaving as troublesome and as inconvenient as they could. There is, of course, no reason whatsoever for this. Incredible as it may seem, many countries outside the EU trade perfectly well with it (so far as the EU’s protectionist regime permits, that is) and their citizens have no trouble travelling to and from it. Normal countries do not go out of their way to hinder mutually beneficial trade and tourism. But EU countries cannot, by any stretch, be included under the heading of "Normal."
So, anybody who believed most of the claptrap – uttered by both sides – that was spouted during the referendum campaign have only themselves to blame if they considered that when they cast their vote. The Leave campaign over stated the simplicity of the task whilst the Remain campaign over stated the dire consequences they said would ensue if we left. Both told lies and it was for the electorate to make up their own minds based on what they knew, not what they were promised.
So my thinking is by no means woolly. I have wanted this country to leave the EU since 1992. In fact it is more clear than almost anybody’s. I believe the EU is a pernicious, protectionist organisation and it was not in the UK’s interest to be a member under any circumstances. Nothing any politician has told me has caused me to alter that belief, especially nothing that was uttered by either side in the campaign. So when I stand accused of falling for lies I get the hump because the way I cast my vote was not influenced by any politician – liar or otherwise (if indeed there is another variety).
//We're trying to renege on the NI protocol which we negotiated.//
No country should be bound by a Treaty that causes it such severe trouble as the NI Protocol does. It has a clause within it that provides for its suspension (which the EU almost implemented in 2021) so we must either implement that clause or ditch the Protocol in its entirety.
//Or is that the fault of the French too?//
No, It’s mainly the fault of the EU. The NI Protocol was drafted on the understanding that it would be implemented pragmatically. Its aim is to protect the EU’s Single Market, not to destroy trade between different parts of the UK (though why those signing it believed it would be operated in Good Faith when the other signatory was the EU is anybody’s guess). There is no reason why it shouldn't work but it clearly doesn't. There is no need for goods dispatched from GB destined to remain in NI to be checked – it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a method of discrimination. Similarly there is no need for the EU to undertake 20% of all its customs checks on the 0.5% of its imports that cross the Irish Sea. But pragmatism has been trumped – predictably – by ideology.
> That is absurdly untrue, have you ever driven through the Dover terminal by car en route to France? the answer must be NO.
Wrong. I have, including on the first weekend of the British school holidays as it has been this weekend. When I drove through, the French kiosks were hardly even manned and there were no queues.
It's like you don't even realise why there wasn't a problem before and there is now ...
Wrong. I have, including on the first weekend of the British school holidays as it has been this weekend. When I drove through, the French kiosks were hardly even manned and there were no queues.
It's like you don't even realise why there wasn't a problem before and there is now ...
//Just to be clear, that’s a no to the video then?//
I think I've explained that I rarely, if ever, believe what politicians tell me. That way I'm rarely, if ever disappointed.
//you're basically saying that it was obvious that there would be queues and of course the politicians lied, that's what they do.//
It was obvious there would be difficulties. Forty years of political and economic entanglement with an organisation which behaves as the EU does will probably take many years to completely reverse. Anybody believing it would be done swiftly and smoothly was foolish and if they formed that belief based on what politicians told them they were very foolish.
I think I've explained that I rarely, if ever, believe what politicians tell me. That way I'm rarely, if ever disappointed.
//you're basically saying that it was obvious that there would be queues and of course the politicians lied, that's what they do.//
It was obvious there would be difficulties. Forty years of political and economic entanglement with an organisation which behaves as the EU does will probably take many years to completely reverse. Anybody believing it would be done swiftly and smoothly was foolish and if they formed that belief based on what politicians told them they were very foolish.
Ellipsis //> That is absurdly untrue, have you ever driven through the Dover terminal by car en route to France? the answer must be NO.
Wrong. I have, including on the first weekend of the British school holidays as it has been this weekend. When I drove through, the French kiosks were hardly even manned and there were no queues.
It's like you don't even realise why there wasn't a problem before and there is now ...//
If you think back, you will find your passports had already been checked at the Dover terminal by the French border control police, in fact they were the first authority to do that (on the right) as you entered the port.
Later, as you drove on, your passports and tickets were checked again by the Brits before boarding.
Wrong. I have, including on the first weekend of the British school holidays as it has been this weekend. When I drove through, the French kiosks were hardly even manned and there were no queues.
It's like you don't even realise why there wasn't a problem before and there is now ...//
If you think back, you will find your passports had already been checked at the Dover terminal by the French border control police, in fact they were the first authority to do that (on the right) as you entered the port.
Later, as you drove on, your passports and tickets were checked again by the Brits before boarding.
Ellipsis; //Khandro, are you saying that you know that I was delayed longer than I recall?//
I've no idea whether you were ever delayed or not, I'm just saying that when you were "waved through" in Calais, it was because you had already been checked by the French border police in Dover port.
Also, Ms Elphick, the MP for Dover, was quoted on Saturday (see above somewhere, I can't be bothered) that the delay already building up was due to the French controllers not turning up to work along with French intransigence. Being the the MP for Dover & being there, she should know, wouldn't you say?
Btw, apparently the backlog of holiday-makers has now been cleared & things are running to normal.
I've no idea whether you were ever delayed or not, I'm just saying that when you were "waved through" in Calais, it was because you had already been checked by the French border police in Dover port.
Also, Ms Elphick, the MP for Dover, was quoted on Saturday (see above somewhere, I can't be bothered) that the delay already building up was due to the French controllers not turning up to work along with French intransigence. Being the the MP for Dover & being there, she should know, wouldn't you say?
Btw, apparently the backlog of holiday-makers has now been cleared & things are running to normal.
So now we have New Judge who tells us not to believe a word MPs say, and Khandro who tells us to believe MP Natalie Elphicke, MP for Dover, successor to her husband Charlie Elphicke, who lost his job for being convicted of sex offences.
Hmm, who to believe ...
At least New Judge is straight enough to admit it's Brexit that caused the queues and, so what, get on with it.
But Khandro would prefer to blame the French than admit that the queues, on one of the predictable busiest weekends of the year, were the predictable outcome of the vote choice that he made.
Hmm, who to believe ...
At least New Judge is straight enough to admit it's Brexit that caused the queues and, so what, get on with it.
But Khandro would prefer to blame the French than admit that the queues, on one of the predictable busiest weekends of the year, were the predictable outcome of the vote choice that he made.
“No need to make excuses for them. There there to provide a service. If they want to deter people from coming why dont they just say so instead of implying its our fault for voting Brexit. Brexits done so either staff the ports properly or say we dont want visitors from UK”
You are jumping to the same jingoistic conclusion as others, which isn’t like you.
It seems to me utterly daft to suggest this is a ploy to stop people travelling. Is this what we’ve become?
More passport and goods checks means delays whether there’s people manning all the points or not.
I daresay it will be sorted eventually
You are jumping to the same jingoistic conclusion as others, which isn’t like you.
It seems to me utterly daft to suggest this is a ploy to stop people travelling. Is this what we’ve become?
More passport and goods checks means delays whether there’s people manning all the points or not.
I daresay it will be sorted eventually
The legal requirement to stamp (not just check) passports has increased the processing time per vehicle by an average of 30 seconds...
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30 seconds per car can build into very serious delays... obviously not the only factor but it is deluded to say that these delays have nothing to do with Brexit... they do. It was predicted accurately 6 years ago that leaving the EU in this way would lead to delays at Dover... that prediction has come true.
https:/
30 seconds per car can build into very serious delays... obviously not the only factor but it is deluded to say that these delays have nothing to do with Brexit... they do. It was predicted accurately 6 years ago that leaving the EU in this way would lead to delays at Dover... that prediction has come true.
//If we are going to need scores of French border police manning passport desks etc in Blighty it doesn’t suggest much taking back of control//
Scores !!? perhaps one or two extra should do it as long as they show up for work which they didn't, arriving - even admitted by the French- one hour late on what was known to be one of the busiest days of the year.
And when you have a problem, you know what you have to do ? --- fix it.
I would say this is what is known as, "The Black Swan" theory, do you know what that is?
It was advanced by the writer N. N. Taleb, & refers to unexpected events that have extreme consequences, but are rationalised after by clever *** who say, "That was always going to happen".
Scores !!? perhaps one or two extra should do it as long as they show up for work which they didn't, arriving - even admitted by the French- one hour late on what was known to be one of the busiest days of the year.
And when you have a problem, you know what you have to do ? --- fix it.
I would say this is what is known as, "The Black Swan" theory, do you know what that is?
It was advanced by the writer N. N. Taleb, & refers to unexpected events that have extreme consequences, but are rationalised after by clever *** who say, "That was always going to happen".
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