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Pope Calls For Universal Ban On Surrogate Parenting
//Pope Francis called on Monday for a global ban on parenting via surrogacy, calling the practice "deplorable" and a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child. Francis' remarks are likely to antagonise pro-LGBT+ groups, since surrogacy is often used by gay or lesbian partners who want to have children, and follow his landmark decision to allow priests to bless same-sex couples.//
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Still pondering this a bit but at the moment I think I agree with him - although not for the same reasons. What say you?
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Atheist - // Andy; surely that's an unfair question. I wouldn't ask N if she was Jewish or lesbian or black or pink or disabled or an immigrant or a man or a toff. None of that is relevant to an intelligent discussion. //
I think it's a perfectly reasonable question.
All the examples you give mean that you can know if the person with whom you are debating speaks with personal direct experience, or is simply offering a considered opinion.
As far as I am concerned, that is relevant in a discussion, others may not.
But as you can see from the last two posts, naomi has declined to confirm if she has chilren or not - from her posts, I suspect not, but I cannot meaningfully engage with her on the subject without knowing if her views are formed by direct experience, or abstract opinion.
dave - That's not quite the same thing.
For instance, if I comment on thread about womens' experiences in communcal changing rooms, it's a given that I am not talking from personal experience.
If I am discussing something about gay men, it's not taken as read, and it does help the discussion if contributors make it apparent - they don't have to state it as a fact at the top of their answer, if they are speaking from experience.
I don't regard that as a dealbreaker with almost all posters on here.
But some who do tend to post as though they are an authority, may add weight to their argument if it was apparent that the actually knew what they were talking about.
If a directly disagree with someone who has personal experience of the subject, then I can debate from that perspective, if we are both simply offering our opinions, then again, we know where we stand.
But what has raised the issue for me, is that naiomi is willing to post very firmly held views about surrogacy, and it is my belief that she does not have direct experience of being a parent, and I merely wished to clarify that.
She has declined to do so, and that means that I can't debate the subject with her properly, because I don;t know if she actually knows what she is talking about.
I suspect not, but that's for her to know, and me to not particuarly care about.
As I say, it's merely an observation. nothing more than that.
Untitled - // i really don't think it is important if naomi is a parent andy... i agree with your stance on the issue but the site would be a bit boring if we just ignored everyone who didn't have relevant experience all the time wouldn't it //
I couldn't agree more - I have an opinion on anything that floats into my orbit, some strong, some indifferent, but I have them, and express them given the opportunity.
I don;t mind anyone not knowing the first thing about what we are discussing, whatever that may be.
My problem arises when people post in an authoritative manner, as though they do know from experience of what they speak, when in fact they don't, because that makes them appear knowledgable, when they are not.
I know nothing about far more than things I do know about, but if someone asks me if I have experience in the subject, I have no issue in advising either way.
bednobs - // if people were limited to answering on questions they had personal knowledge about, there wold bevery few answers, or all answers would be given by PP. //
LOL - and I absolutely agree, in fact I have made exactly that point on many occasions.
I don;t believe that personal experience of knowldge of any subject is necessary to offer a view or an opinion, or enter a discussion.
My point was, that if someone has a particulary strong viewpoint - as naomi has on this (and indeed most others!!), it can be helpful to know if the poster is speaking from personal knowledge, or simply offering a view.
As I did point out, i don't think that is a prerequisite to contributing, as you rightly point out, it would narrow the field beyond the point where any reasonable exchange of views would be possible.
So I was simply inerested, and naomi has declined to comment, so no problem, on we go.
//Andy, aren't your girls step children? Perhaps then, we can not engage meaningfully with you on this subject either?? //
Actually, my two older daughters were gifted to me, and my youngest daughter is the result of love between myself and my wonderful wife.
That means that, in view of my thoughts above, you can engage meaningfully on this subject because I do have 'direct experience' in the area of debate.
Tomorrow, we might be discussing nuclear fission, about which I know absolutely nothing, but that will not prevent me from offering a view or any opinion if I have either, or both.
Untitled - // it is a bit personal to ask if someone has kids though //
I disagree.
As you may or may not know, my wife and I enjoy a cruise holiday three or four times a year, as I am a Guest Speaker on board.
The ships offer a system called 'freedom dining', where an individual or couple will be placed on a table of four, six, or eight people, for dinner every evening.
That means I have sat down to dinner with literally hundredsof people who are complete strangers to us, and each other, at the start of the meal.
But guarenteed, without fail, during the initial conversation when people are exchanging information, someone will ask the table if they have family, including children or grandchildren back home.
I have never had one meal where the subject has not been raised by someone, it is an absolutely standard topic of conversation among cruise guests.
So no, I don't agree that it is 'personal' - because if it was, I am sure that hundreds of thousands of people who sit down to dine with strangers every night for the length of their cruise, would not easily and naturally bring it up as a topic of simple interest about their fellow diners, or would answer it without any embarassment whatsoever.
naomi - // Andy Hughes, it seems to me you care rather more than you're willing to admit //
Something wrong with your seemer then, but never mind.
// ... so in order to attempt return this thread to some order of semblance, allow me to put you out of your misery. Yes, I am a mum - and a very good one at that. //
I assure you that you are not 'putting me out of my misery' - the issue does not place me within a country mile of 'misery'!!
But I am sure you are a very good mum.
Countrylover - // Personally I don't think the pope should have any say in it. Why should he? //
My view is that he should not.
Were he a citizen, or even a contibutor to this debate, then of course, his opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
But he is not, he is leader of the one of the major religions on the planet, and multi-millions of people take, and act, on his word on such important matters.
Since he is utterly unqualified to comment, since he knows nothing of marriage, or parenthood, then his opinion in private is as valid as anyone else's.
But his pronouncement as Pope to his multi-millions of followers who take his word as gospel (pun intended) then it is wrong that he should be stating what people should do in this circumstance, denying millions of loving couples the chance to have a child, which, ironically, would increase the lessening numbers of people following his, and his church's teachings.
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