Nuclear weapons in the middle east

[Gromit]

After the Israeli Prime Minister's recent gaffe in admitting publicly the existence of Israel Nuclear arsenal, (200 warheads at the last count) Iran has written to the UN Security Council compeling it to make Israel disarm and to accede to the Nuclear Non-Profileration Treaty.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E8F80F7 F-E1A8-49A5-8424-EAA471228126.htm

A bit of mischief on Iran's part maybe, but are the US and UK operating a double standard in the middle east?

[Theland]

I would say that U.S. & U.K. are indeed operating a double standard. But so what? Our two democracies are not going to launch missiles at Iran unless either attacked first, or perceiving an imminent attack, whereas Iran has stated publicly and often it's desire to see Israel wiped off the map, and has made similar noises regards the West.

[WaldoMcFroog]

If you want to see evidence of double standards, you need look no further than the UN Vetoes list:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/ veto/vetosubj.htm

[Loosehead]

I'm with theland on this one. Yes double standards but generally there is no doubt that Iran and probably other islamic states would use nukes, probably on Isreal and the US without hesitation, if they had them. So double standards are necessary.

[jake-the-peg]

OK so you guys are saying that nclear weapons are safe in Israels hands are you?

That would be a state that partly defends itself on the basis of biblical precident!

The whole middle east is the world's largest outdoor lunatic asyllum having anyone out there with nuclear weapons is utter madness.

[WaldoMcFroog]

So, Theland, when you say "Our two democracies are not going to launch missiles at Iran unless either attacked first, or perceiving an imminent attac", would that mean the discovery that Iran had weapons of mass destruction that it could bring to bear in 45 minutes would be sufficient justification?

[Lonnie]

I understand your point, but Israel only has to lose one war, and its gone, the Arab nations won't listen to calls to stop, also, regardless of Olmerts admission, they have never, to my knowledge, actually tested (exploded) any, so even though the odds are that they do have them, there is still no real proof.

But as Loosehead says, if a country like Iran acquires them, they will use them, I don't think there's much doubt about that.

[LazyGun]

Yes it is a double standard.

Whether or not it is an acceptable one depends on whether you think that islamic states are all rabid, with no appreciation of the likely consequences of initiating a first strike with nuclear missiles.

[jno]

quite so, Waldo; I trust Iran about as much as I trust Israel or the US. None of them would hesitate to nuke me and ask questions afterwards. Soem of those ABers who insist on the need for double standards seem to be the people who repeatedly (and correctly) criticise, say, politicians for not practising what they preach... in other words, for having double standards.

[Gromit]

Lonnie,

There is speculation that Israel did indeed use tactical nuclear weapons in Lebanon earlier this year

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context =viewArticle&code=20061111&articleId=3813

[Theland]

One of the strengths of the global jihadists is their constant taunt to the West that we love life whereas they love death. Ahmadinejad supports this view also, and seriously believes that his instigating chaos, will speed up the return of the 12th Imam, the muslim "messiah".
The jihadists don't hate us because of Israel, they us Israel because of us! Israel is smack bang in the middle of them, espousing all of the values of a western democracy.
You can be as fair minded and as pc as you like, Ahmadinejad will not be impressed, but will push on with his plans, to destroy Israel and us. Don't think you are dealing with the forces of reason here.

[WaldoMcFroog]

I've read your religiously motivated posts before, Theland. I well aware that reason isn't your strong suit.

[Theland]

Then let's hope that Mr. Ahmadinejad is totally reasonable. Maybe somebody could sit down with him and explain that we don't like the idea of him blowing Israel or us, to smithereens. Maybe he'll listen. Maybe I'm wrong after all, and I've sleighted this chaps reputation without just cause.

[Loosehead]

Well Jake/Waldo Israel have not used them so far. Anyway despite your personal leanings are you prepared to say, hand on heart that you'd be happy with Iran having nukes? It's a constant twee observation you guys make and really we all do accept that double standards are there. It's just that in all reason they are necessary. Islam has time and time again referred to the irradication of the infidel, even the moderates give tacit approval of it via innaction.

It's like leaving open the fridge, do you trust a hungry dog not too eat the meat?

[LazyGun]

Loosehead, no one is at all certain at this point whether Iran is persuing nuclear weapons, despite all the claims and the polemic. As a nation state, they are perfectly entitled to develop a civilian nuclear energy programme should they so wish.
The real fly in the ointment in all this is Ahmedijads comments about Israel, and I do agree that this is a source of grave concern, and Israel do have a right to be nervous of such a neighbour.
Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear NPT (unlike Israel).
You also comment that moderate muslims give tacit approval to extremists due to inaction. Could you clarify that a bit? I have seen plenty of comment from moderate muslims and islamic states, condemning the actions of the extremists , such as 9/11, 7/7 the madrid bombings etc.... I am unclear what sort of action would satisfy you from your post.

[Loosehead]

What I'm thinking of LG is some sort of action to denounce the extremists, expell them from the religion publicly something of that nature by the senior clerics of Islam, perhaps from Mecca the home of Islam. The extremists would go away and call themselves real Islam or something but they would be marginalised by their own side. If they did that I would start to think that they are at least trying to put their house in order. I do accept that so called moderates have condemed acts of terrorism but it always seems to come with qualifications and sub texts and gives the look and feel of what you might term "crocodile tears".

[LazyGun]

Thanks for the clarification Loosehead.I can see where you are coming from now.
I do sometimes wonder whether some of the qualifications and subtexts that are attached to public condemnations arise from the media they are reported to. It is also true to say, I think, that the impression of a qualified message often arises through the inclusion within a news article or comment of contributions from additional sources, who may or may not endorse the original message.
It is also worth remembering that the Saudis expelled Bin Laden, and Al Quaeda is pursued in Pakistan, for instance.

[Lonnie]

I'm afraid I don't believe it Gromit, have a look at this, but in the end, with the media's, we tend to take out the bits we want.

http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

[jake-the-peg]

Well I have to agree with Grommit that some sort of nuclear device was used recently. Or was attempted to be used.

The fact that it was Uranium and not Plutonium makes it sound somewhat homegrown and it may have failed to detonate correctly.

Lonnie may not believe it but you might be interested in the following which Dr. Chris Busby ciruclated about his findings.

http://www.llrc.org/du/subtopic/breakingwinds2 .htm

[Theland]

I also saw a clip during the Lebanese war, where childrens bodies were laid out next to the rubble of a building that had been bombed, supposedly with the kids inside. The kids were dead alright, but their clothes bore no resemblance to being pulled from rubble. The Hizbollah, Hamas, Fatah and the rest of the jihadists are masters at the P.R. and Israel has its work cut out trying to refute these numerous spurious claims.

[Gromit]

Lonnie, I don't think this was supposed to be a photo of the actual bomb exploding, it was just an illustration. I took it as just any old bomb exploding, to have a camera pointing in the right direction at the precise time of hit would be extremey unlikely. I was more referring to the actual report, which you just dismiss as "I don't believe it". I have an open mind on it at the moment, that is why I said "there is speculation" of a nuclear device being used.

The instances of photo-manipulation are well known and documented and I agree we should be on our guard in trying to spot examples and make a loud noise when such photo dishonesty is exposed,