Gay adoption row on Sky news at the moment.....

[Loosehead]

Ok it's about Catholic adoption agencies primarily but what has horrified me is that Gay couples are considered as suitable to adopt full stop. Now before you start jumping up and down, "homophobia" yada yada etc. This is not an anti gay rant but one of conncern for the adopted children. Surely they will go through a life of merciless ribbing at best and brutal bullying at worst. Kids are totally cruel. Should children be put through this on the altar of trendy PC policies? What sort of screwed up mental state would the victims of this policy be in by the time they reach adulthood?

[Hammer Head]

I agree with you 100% loosehead. When my children were in primary school there was a boy who was brought to school be his mother and her girlfriend. The boy was frequently questioned by the other children as to where his father was and who was the woman holding hands with his mother.

Children need a stable family environment with a mother and father. The Catholic church is right to defend their position from both a moral and social point of view.

[Goodsoulette]

The important thing in a childs life is that it has people that love them, be that a married couple, an unmarried couple, a lesbian couple or a single person of any orientation. Do you not think its people attitudes that should change?
I grew up with a girl whose mum lived with another woman and to be honest I never thought about it till I was in my midteens. I never heard anyone bullying her for it.

I also know a lesbian couple who have 2 daughters, the eldest one has on occasion had fun made of her because of her parents but the younger one who is fat gets picked on because she is chubby. Not a mention of her mums relationship. Kids are cruel and will pick on anything that makes them stand out from the rest. The important thing is that the child then has loving parents that can support them through this at home, teach them to be strong and stick a big finger up at the idiots that would think less of them for living in this sort of household. If we were aware of gay relationships as being normal from an earlier age then maybe the next generation will be a lot more tolerant.

[Hammer Head]

I actually don't think most people want to think of gay relationships as normal. Men and women were designed to have sex in order to procreate. As I have yet to see a gay couple produce children, it has to be thought of as not normal. I hope the next generation continue with this way of thinking otherwise we will lose the last remnants of any normal society for raising children within a normal family.

[noxlumos]

That's your cross to bear. Children need love, nurturing, protection and guidance whether that's from straight or gay people is irrelevant.

[Loosehead]

I agree Noxy but what do you think of the main point that regardless of the effort put in at home the "parents" cannot control what happens throughout their time in school etc

[Ctrak]

I don't think the bullying issue's that big a deal; bullying, regrettable though it is, exists anyway, so certain kids will find a reason to beat the crap out of others anyway. Besides, if homosexuality became totally acceptable in society, there'd be no legitimate point to bully on anyway.

That said, you do actually make a genuine point of concern, which is more than could be said for whatever reasons the Church would come up with.

[sir.prize]

Hammer Head - with your comments all the way. I notice your repeated use of the word 'normal'. The homosexuality issue really makes my skin creep. Yet gay people are always claiming that it is a 'normal' orientation. Yeah! OK. So why is it that so many of them hide in the closet and when they do eventually emerge, it becomes a big deal and they are so often bemused and embarrassed? Surely that emphasises OUR belief and natural understanding that they are indeed NOT NORMAL AND UNNATURAL? It amazes me that there are so many of them considering they do not procreate!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I better leave it there . . . further comment may offend.

[Ctrak]

sir.prize - I think what you're describing is not truth, more something called "social norms". 'Tis a strange phenomenon indeed. For example, centuries ago, these "social norms" stipulated that it was OK to treat Africans as slaves. Nowadays they say this is totally wrong. So are the older norms right?

I think you'll also find that there are hundreds, if not thousands of species of animals in nature that have homosexual tendencies. I suppose these are "unnatural", too, yeah?

[sir.prize]

yeah!

[Ctrak]

So a significant chunk of NATURE is unnatural?

[Le Chat]

I would have thought that if the option was either a) being shunted from foster home to foster home b) being brought up by a gay couple in a loving environment, then there is no contest. However, if the option is between a) loving hetro parents and b) loving gay parents, then the former should be the first choice by way of a 'natural selection.'
My opinion only.

[sir.prize]

ctrak - - - - you stated that you THINK there are hundreds or thousands of species in nature which have homosexual tendencies. And then asked if I considered them to be UNNATURAL. I answered yes to the last part of your statement - they ARE unnatural.

Think about this from the Chambers Dictionary . . . .

Unnatural: NOT according to nature. Without NATURAL affection. Considered not only immoral but also unacceptably indecent or abnormal.

The fact that the human "They" are considered to be hiding in a closet, according to the same dictionary, is that their practices are secrets. Why, ctrak, if it is normal, do they keep it secret?

[sp1814]

In the 70s when I was at school, it was rare to see children of mixed race couples. In my school, I remember it was a real social stigma.

That's pretty much died out.

The social stigma attached to children raised by gay couples will eventually die out too...simple as that. Some of the attitudes expressed over the past couple of days, with regards to this story will simply fade away, as newer, more enlightened generations take our place.

You'd probably be shocked at how liberal some kids are today.

I salute them.

If only they weren't so badly dressed.

[sp1814]

sir.prize (excellent name by the way), the reason who so many gay men and women feel, or have felt, the need to stay in the closet is to avoid the the negative attitudes of families, friends, co-workers etc.

Like I said before, that's changing. An 18 year old gay lad or lesbian doesn't have as much to fear in terms of social exclusion that they did, say, 20 years back.

I mean, do you remember Boy George claiming that he preferred a cup of tea to sex?

That was what it was like back in 1983, and the man was wearing a frock for goodness sake.

Now, it's way better.

Personally, I think lesbians make fantastic parents. I know a couple and their kids are cherished as much as any straight couple.

I know a gay male couple, and whilst they're fine dads, they do tend to listen to rubbish music, which I suppose could be damaging in the long term to their kids.

[sp1814]

Loosehead

I have a question...why are you horrified?

[Pinky99]

''Children need a stable family environment with a mother and father.''

I must answer that statement - no they don't!! My son has been offered a scholarship to an independant grammer and he has done that without the input of his father purely because his father didn't want to be part of his life. Also he has been bought up in a predominately female environment - his moher, grandmother and Aunt. He plays football, is trying out for the rugby team and also has started tennis and is the most boyish boy you can come across. Is the environment he has had to grow up in any different?? He is a boy and there are no male influences in his life.

[andy-hughes]

Hammer Head - given the Catholic church's well documented and continuing willingness to shield and move around its paedophile priests, I hardly think it is in a position to preach the morality, or otherwise of homosexuality do you?

Sexuality is a matter of individuality - the notion of an organisation of men who singularly fail to live 'normal' - as you like to say - lives with wives and families are hardly equipped to know what is best for anyone in terms of a suitable environment for raising children.

I entirely agree with Goodsoulette - the fault lies not with the fact that homosexuals are different in terms of their sexuality, but that society as a whole, although it has moved on considerably, still finds it hard to accept that gay people love and live and fall out and cry and buy presents and watch BB and post on here ... just like all you 'normal' people.

The moral highground is a crowded place Hammer Head. You are heterosexual through an accident of birth - not because your sexuality is a prize you cultivated in a moral greenhouse. Try a little tolerance, you'll feel better for it - maybe less of those headaches ....

[Loosehead]

Well SP I'm horrified pretty much for the reasons expressed in the Q. Where as I agree that Gay couples could meet the main objective of providing a stable loving envronment for an adoptive child, I'm worried that the children themselves would become the object of ridicule, mainly by their peers. Where as I agree that the attitude may well change in the next generation it will not be instant and I feel that this generaion of adoptees are being used as a sop the PC mafia.

[flip-flop]

Different spin on this if I may - firstly I would state that I don't have a huge opinion one way or the other on whether or not gay people should be allowed to adopt, I do however feel that in the interests of being seen as promoting equality certain adoption agencies will favour gay couples over hetero couples to reinforce their strive for equality, thus not being equal at all (if that makes sense).

In which case there should be proper safeguards to avoid this situation.

Also, if the Catholic church are saying they will have to close their adoption agencies because their faith does not approve of homosexuality, well shouldn't they be exempt? Personally I feel they should - forcing them to choose, which will result in closures, will be a very Pyrric victory and the only losers will be the kids.

We wouldn't force another major religion in this country to act against their beliefs (I think you know the religion I am talking about) and therefore I don't see why the Catholics should be forced to.

[sp1814]

Loosehead

But every time there is a shift in social attitudes, there will always be those who set out to bully, intimidate and threaten because they don't accept those changes.

Yes, there will be some who refuse to move with the times...but surely it's unacceptable to maintain the status quo???

I mean, you yourself have just written something which would've been unthinkable not too long ago:

"I agree that Gay couples could meet the main objective of providing a stable loving envronment for an adoptive child"

I know that's taken out of context, but just think about that for a second...that's a hugely enlightened attitude, and if you can think like that, then one or two generations down the road will see gay couples are no more outlandish as mixed race couples.