Israeli butchers at their work yet again...

[sandyRoe]

Israeli commandos attacked a flotilla of ships carrying aid to Gaza. At least 15 peace activists have been killed. What would Israel have to do before it was condemned by the West's political leaders?

[jno]

what would you do, modeller? Well, how about obeying international law for a start? The ships were in international waters. The Israelis had no more right to be on them than Somali pirates (unless you accept that might makes right, in which case Israel can do anything it wishes and it will always be right).

[123everton]

There was 500 people on board to express solidarity with the cause and the mission, these activists were from all over the world, as soon as Israel arrests them their home countries have to be informed and the process of deportation operated.
All this means that the home nation of the protestor has to make a statement or express a position with regard to it's citizen, it also means that the national news papers of the protestor's nation will remark upon it in greater detail as it has a national "local" interest.
These troops are highly trained, equppied and armoured rubber or plastic bullets could easily have been employed.
Israel's made a minor faux pas in all this, the protestors wanted them to react violently to it, and the obliged.
It is a minor incident as noone'll do anything about it other than beat their gums for a bit.
Although Turkey does take over the chair of the security council next week, so that will give it a bit of spice.

[naomi24]

jno, it's not often I agree with you, but this is one of those rare occasions. Well said.

[keyplus90]

Double standards from international community especially USA & CO who has been black mailed by Israeli Jewish lobby. Bill Clinton knows that very well and he must have informed Obama too. All the technology, funds and most importantly protection Israel gets from USA makes them a most well equipped country against people who even if throw a stone are branded terrorists.

I would only say one thing, let this happen and keep watching more young Muslims turning out to retaliate. Now you may call them terrorists or whatever, but they believe that they have no choice as their own leaders take dictation directly from the people who are killing them and world community (UNO) in this regard is completely useless and has no power when it comes to certain countries.

Every new American president visits Holocaust Museum and they believe themselves to be Sheriff for the whole world. Has anyone ever visited the largest concentration camp in the world.

Modeller – you are asking other people questions but let me ask you one. Since 1948 has Israel grown, is it same or reduced in size? Whatever your answer, just let me know how did that happen?

[237SJ]

In answer to the original question, the west won`t condemn Israel because the West is funding Israel (or at least the USA is). Strangely enough I got back from work in Tel Aviv Saturday night. Thank goodness I did because I wouldn`t want to be there now in the face of reprisals

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Since 1948 has Israel grown, is it same or reduced in size? //

I don't often agree with you either, but that's a good question.

[modeller]

jno #what would you do, modeller?# You want me to answer the question that neither you or sandyRoe are willing to answer. The answer is simple I would fight back. If I was a member of a group of 20 and I was attacked by a mob of 500 wielding iron bars and knives I would fight for my life with whatever weapons I had . I am not taking sides I am facing facts. Let me take it a step further and ask you what would have happened to the Israelis if they they had not fought back. ? They would all have been beaten to death. That is why they fought back.
At a personal level my sympathies are with the Gazans but that does not blind me to the situation which occurred on that ship.

[jno]

modeller, my question was why they were on the ship in the first place. In effect, they walked into someone's home fully armed and when the inhabitants tried to throw them out, shot them. I know what I'd think if this happened in Hampshire. They weren't 'fighting back', the people on the ships were. The ships were, quite legally, in international waters.

[modeller]

keyplus The reason why it happened was because the combined Arab states IN1948 surrounding Israel attacked in the belief they could wipe out this little newly formed state. In the event they got a bloody nose and lost a great deal of their territory. Please note it was the Arab states who attacked not the other way around. There have been five Arab Israeli wars with mixed fortunes but that is the answer to how did it happen.

[sandyRoe]

Modeller,
You asked what would I do? My answer is this: I wouldn't be an Israeli. If I had been born there I would have left because my conscience wouldn't allow me to be part of a country that is based on land-theft, apartheid, and murderous attacks on civilians.

[modeller]

jno That is the point it is not a question of right or wrong but rather if you are attacked you fight back. In your home you will fight a burglar and he in turn will fight back.
It's a question of survival . All the moral arguments are irrelevant to the situation you find yourself in.

[sandyRoe]

Modeller,
the tone of your posts suggests that the '20 israelis' were innocently going about their legitimate business when they were attacked by a 500 strong mob of fanatics.
Are we talking about the same incident, here?

[123everton]

It's a question of training and instruction rather than survival.
These men are highly trained, they are facing an angry mob, rubber bullets on two or three will force the others away, tear gas after that wil finish them off.
Your answers are skewed modeller because you're a civilian, these troops are drilled on how to respond to these situations, so one must presume they had an order that (at the very least) allowed them to respond this way.

[modeller]

sandyRoe That hasn't answered the question. Would you fight if attacked or not ?

[123everton]

Do you feel the Israeli response was proportinate to the threat?
I don't.

[modeller]

No sandyRoe I am not taking sides I am purely saying if you are facing a survival situation , innocent or guilty , you will fight.
123everton How you fight and what means you use is another matter entirely. My fundamental point was you will fight or go under.

[zita-green]

Sadly, Israel has become a fascist state. Dreadfully ironic, really. Building a wall to keep out Palestinians - reminds me of Berlin. Does anyone really believe that a ship carrying aid to the Gaza strip would be stupid enough to take terrorists/extremists on board. Aid vets know what they are doing; they have worked in some of the most dangerous places on earth. I agree with Sandyroe.

[jake-the-peg]

Listening to the Israeli embassador on the Today program this morning

I noticed that he descibed the activists as being armed with steel bars, pipes and very long knives.

The comments about "at least 2 guns" seemed to have been dropped

Though that was interesting

[modeller]

123everton No I don't think it was proportionate but I can understand how it came about which is the point I was making. We see this sort of thing happening all over the world. One side may start off softly softly but when attacked it escalates into something more violent. This is especially the case when they are heavily out numbered.

[jno]

Yes, but which side was attacked? In international waters, where they had every right to be?