Listener 4026: Elitism by Zero

[midazolam]

A fine crossword from Zero as always. The grid filled fairly quickly but the thematic material is excellent.

As usual the grid and clues have been forwarded on. If anyone else would like a copy: [email protected]


Don't forget Mother's Day tomorrow!

[Clamzy]

Thanks for starting the thread midazolam. I shall be heading to the shop for my copy of the Times shortly and look forward to the Zero puzzle.

[Speravi]

I think the cluing is superb, quite a few times I was thinking "It can't be, can it?", knowing it had to be - and it was. Although I have a first stage grid completed, the ratio of lights should be 21:16:17 and my ratio is 20:13:20, with one light obtained from checked letters that I can't place. Obviously, some of my redundant words aren't. Trying to form a four-word phrase is trying. The last time I had this difficulty, the phrase wasn't in English. The title isn't helping me, and events historical and otherwise around this time don't either (St Patrick's Day? - Gone, Mothering Sunday? Can't see that meshing with elitism). I hope this thinking aloud post doesn't annoy too many people.

[Walterloo]

I have a full grid and an understanding of the theme, but even though I can see in the grid a SIX word phrase, after a little 'redistributing', that's where I stop. The 21 ignored letters make no sense, being too many letters for the four word phrase that led me to the six word phrase, and the wordplay to 1 and 7 down fails me.
I'm perplexed, but I'm enjoying it.

[Speravi]

I have the right ratio now. I had a candidate for the first four-word phrase derived from the title,, but it was too short, The 16 redundant words led me to the second part of the "additional element", which ties in with my candidate phrase which I now believe to be the second four-word phrase. This leads me to a six word "phrase", perhaps the same as the one that Walterloo has. Like Walterloo, I can see that phrase in the grid, with some redistribution, but the redistribution doesn't tie in with anything I have at the moment. Perhaps my six word phrase is the theme. If so, this implies that some letters/words to be highlighted are doing double duty: given that the letters in my second phrase form a subset of the omitted letters, this seems possible.

[uncletony]

When wordplay is one letter short of the grid entry, the usual tip is to keep track of these letters by highlighting them in a working copy of the grid.

[Walterloo]

Thank you uncletony. Of course! I should have seen that much earlier. Stick me in a filing cabinet under D for dunce.

[Ruthrobin]

Thank you uncletony from another capital D.

[bobbycollins]

I have to own to a vested interest here - I test solved this for the excellent Zero.

The preamble is incorrect - the clue ratio is 21 - 17 - 16

Enjoy a fine puzzle.

[BobHWW]

Yes - a very nice puzzle. I made it 21-16-17 as per the rubric, but I don't get the wordplay at 1D, so perhaps that's the discrepancy.

[Walterloo]

BobHWW, I figured out 1d eventually. Ignoring one letter you're obviously left with 6 letters that the wordplay defines. The first set of two and the second set of two are musically orientated and the last two letters are an abbreviation.

I'm still trying to find the second 4 word phrase. Haven't had much of a chance. The girlfriend insisted we go duvet shopping earlier, then a trip to her mothers. All part of life, of course, and I love her mum, but I was caught gazing out her window thinking about this second phrase!

[bobbycollins]

hmmmmm

I'm stuck on one wordplay which would resolve my 16 or 17 doubts - and this despite my having solved the puzzle previously (doh) when the ratio was definitely 21 - 17 - 16

[midazolam]

i made it 21:16:17 as per the preamble

[bobbycollins]

Thanks, midazolam, I'll go and get me dunce's cap.

[Walterloo]

Midazolam, or anyone else clever enough to have finished this one: Am I wrong in thinking that after the redistribution of letters, once I've managed to show and highlight all the required phrases and theme, that I will be left with unreal words in all or some answers?

[Ruthrobin]

We at last have a complete grid and 21 letters that 'convert' to a very obvious four-word phrase which we assume is the first of the two. (Thank you again uncletony). However, as usual, we are rather lost and wonder how we are to 'redistribute' the letters - do we somehow have to do it physically in the grid or have we already performed that action in our highlighting?
Because of our incompetence with wordplay, we do not have all sixteen of the additional words and we wonder whether that would significantly alter our understanding of the final stage (the finding of that second phrase).
Sorry to again ask for so much help - perhaps we'll get stronger with experience.

[uncletony]

Ruthrobin, I imagine you will get most value from careful consideration of the early part of the preamble.

Walterloo - I think this level of thematic material is usually incompatible with maintaining real words.

[xwordshark]

yes - every part of the preamble must be analysed and taken literally

[perseverer]

Excellent enjoyable puzzle. Some Listeners, you feel the setter is trying to show his (or her?) cleverness, as much as anything else, but not this one. Here the ingenuity of the setter is reflected by the satisfaction the solver gets.

Robinruth, if you are still not there, redistributing the letters in the first phrase correctly will get you the second phrase which initially meant nothing to me but research made all clear and only then did I understand what the 16 words were about (so not having all of them up to then doesn't matter.

[Ruthrobin]

Thank you, thank you - we are there! All 52 letters highlighted and the theme and two significant phrases found - with total delight and astonishment. How did Zero manage to devise it?This one was wonderful - and so was the gentle guidance.

[Walterloo]

Ahh!
This is so frustrating! These blessed crosswords. I love them, but I can either get the final step straight away, or I'm left gazing at a grid for hours!

I now know the second phrase, so I know ALL 52 squares to highlight. My problem is getting them all into such a position that all are visible and ready to be highlighted. I think I'm missing something obvious. The first phrase is not in a straight line. The second phrase is almost, bar two letters, in a straight line, and the theme is almost visible too. I just cannot make that final little intelligent step.
Do all of these original locations for the (near complete) phrases and theme stay the same with a little redistribution or do all change considerably? Any little hints would be welcome.