Listener Crossword 4099: Double Devilry by Pointer

[Zabadak]

A nice challenge and a clever construction, but as you can see, a quick finish. I'm interested to know whether others see what to do before or after discerning the 10 letter word. Cheers to Pointer, and now to find something else to do over the weekend.

[tweaker]

I totally agree RuthRobin. I'm never too keen on letter clash puzzles, misprints I can handle, but this one was a treat, very different than the one's I've tried. An almost off the wall style of puzzle.

[u10]

Totally agree with the recent comments. Too many preambles with such phrases as ...the wordplay includes one extra letter not entered in the grid.... etc etc. Also at last an unusual grid - an endangered species in Listeners from the last few months. A welcome change from 12x12 or 13x13 barred types. When was the last letter puzzle to have blocks and not bars?
Thanks Pointer - more of the same (or similar!) please.

[Zabadak]

Hi Staurologist: As I tried to make clear, when I made my original contribution, there was no other thread when I posted: I always check, and never make assumptions. I recognise the time gap looks long, but sometimes when you search on this board, or look in the relevant place, you see nothing. I'm not interested in hijacking anyone's thread, and while I freely admit I get a bit of a kick from being first here with a solution, I'm not on any kind of ego trip. I did offer mild apology, together with the observation that the other thread seemed to be mostly about not wanting to attempt the thing. I genuinely don't care about being the "right" or "wrong" thread, and if there was a way of withdrawing a question on this board (or even deleting a comment, I might well have done so.
To others, I'm happy to apologise for overstepping the mark on giveaways - I actually think I may well have done this time. My illustration was an attempt to show that this is a fair challenge of a Listener, and to encourage others who might have thought otherwise that this is not just a guessing game. Maybe there is a knack, but there's also a Listener-like logic process going on. In most clues there's a fairly obvious place for the interruption, or a set of sequential letters that can easily be redistributed to form a new and smoother sense. I enjoyed it so much I tackled the Ximenes PD grid referred to earlier (cheers to theBuzz!) - much harder but still doable.
Still friends?

[tweaker]

u10.

Yes I agree also. I purchased the Listener crossword book 2 a while back and there are all sort's of inventive puzzles within. All shapes and sizes. I'd like to get book 1 just to add to my growing collection. Does any one know what it's like?

I've only done 2 puzzles from book 1, but it's interesting to see what setter's come up with!

[Speravi]

Lovely idea, cleverly executed, thanks Pointer. I have mixed feelings about PD: the absence of a definition can make them seem a bit hit-and-miss unless the clues leave no doubt about the correct answer when the penny drops, and I thought that with this offering that clarity was sometimes lacking (I have an alternate for Jock that breaks within a word and continues into the next, but in deference to earlier pleas, I'll keep it to myself - but I will say that it contains the same three letter sequence as in the intended answer). On the other hand, when that clarity is present and the amended sentence seems obvious (but only after you've got it!), the succession of PDMs alluded to above can be very rewarding. In that respect, this was a mixed bag - the cellist was a shocker, in my view. Overall, though, I enjoyed this, and I wouldn’t like to see PD dropped from the repertoire. Another type of puzzle that hasn’t been seen for a (very) long time is the narrative type. The last that I recall must have been set over 15 years ago, the theme was the Boat Race and it appeared on the appropriate day.

[daagg]

I would also make the point that some ambiguity in individual answers is perfectly normal (eg the G/J choice from Mr E's "Some Assembly Required"). My wrong choice for one answer sorted itself out in the usual crossword way, by intersecting letters towards the end.

[u10]

Tweaker - you can still buy the two Listener Crossword books from Amazon. I also have the three Penguin books of Listeners from the 1970s. There seems to have been far more variety in those days. I know I'm showing my age, but does anyone remember the Patience card game puzzles by Leon?

[tweaker]

u10

Thanks for that. I didn't know of the older Listener Penguin books, I'll keep an eye out.

[cluelessJoe]

just a week too late tweaker - Chris L (aka Samuel) just listed two of his Penguin Listener books on Ebay, both auctions now over. I picked up Penguin 1 on Amazon a couple of years ago, but that series don't seem to be regularly available - just keep checking those two sites in particular. I got the impression from Chris's posting on the Crossword Centre board that he was going to be posting other crossword stuff too, so keep an eye open.

[almw3]

Looking at my partially filled in grids gave me the answer to the 10 leter word, so I'm in the 'before' category.

Linda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR3q8I3ad14

8 min video made for 'The Dales Diary' about Low Arvie farm

[almw3]

Hi
I really enjoyed this crossword and hope to find more similiar. I found the 10 letter word by studying my partially completed grids, so i am in the 'before' category.

almw3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR3q8I3ad14

8 minute video made for 'The Dales Diary' about Low Arvie farm

[AndrewG-S]

Back from holiday to a 70+ debate on PD clues! On Ruthrobin's advice I read Don Manley's book on the beach in Greece - based on his hints for PD clues I got half on the first read through and this gave me the 10 letter word, so filled in all bar three within an hour - a very cleverly constructed puzzle. I bet the last three clues will take days now...
How about this one: He life in the sun (8 letters, and I know the surface reading is very poor!)

[teuchter2]

I was obviously too elated at being top of the league! Having looked at my answer for the 10 letter word again I realise that it is probably wrong and now I am doubting which letters have to be in the answer. This is a pity as my original answer was very apt for what I thought was happening. What does unchecked letter in an entry row mean? Is it a row as opposed to a column?

[AndrewG-S]

Yes it is the unchecked letters in each entry row (not column).

[twoshortplan]

I love these PD clues. This was a little easy but good fun - every clue gave a mini PDM and after a couple of wrong guesses the right answer was obviously right (though "Is a Jock..." took a while to correct). Also I was able to go to bed pondering "Bob Cratchit's title" and get it at 3 in the morning.
It makes a change from weeks and weeks of "misprint in definition leads to a phrase" or "wordplay leads to answer with an extra letter leading to a phrase".
Thanks Pointer

[teuchter2]

Thanks Andrew G-S. I am now more sure of what I am trying to achieve. I too got Bob Cratchit's title at about 3.00 am. It was probably the easiest one to memorise and hence mull over in the wakeful hours!

[Mysterons]

I agree that this wasn't taxing enough for the solver - there's nothing wrong with PD clues, and reference has already been made to the excellent Azed Competition Puzzles - but there was too much assistance here from the 'duplicity'. Another thing, I never understand why those of us who are indifferent about Marmite are overlooked so often ?

[cluelessJoe]

Not too sure about pate either Mysterons

[x_word_fan]

Just finished - what a struggle (which I would never have manged without a lot of help from Andrew G-S) Not the type of puzzle for those of us with a scientific/engineering background perhaps - roll on the numbers.