Listener Crossword 4099: Double Devilry by Pointer

[Zabadak]

A nice challenge and a clever construction, but as you can see, a quick finish. I'm interested to know whether others see what to do before or after discerning the 10 letter word. Cheers to Pointer, and now to find something else to do over the weekend.

[AHearer]

Gosh, what a storm (in a teacup?). This was fun, and very cleverly constructed, but left me with a slight "was that a Listener?" feeling.

[daagg]

Pointer seems to have rather taken to these horizontal rectangular grids. His last two in the Magpie have been this shape, and the one before that was a vertical rectangle.

[JackDeCrow]

Nicely put AHearer. I've never finished one before dinner on a Friday before (although I did have to stare at the robbers and the cellist for a while over the main course to see where the word went!) If this had been last week with the annoying signal cable theft (my route home too!), might even have benn doable on the train!

[AHearer]

Yes, JackDeCrow, that was the last one I got, too.

[dr b]

Ok, I finished but I didn't enjoy myself. Very much like eating at McDonald's.

[Philoctetes]

I am inclined to side with those who do not like this sort of puzzle (and this is not anything to do with the fact that I too have only six answers yet). Imagine the outcry if there was a puzzle consisting only of anagrams, especially with such a limited number of clues. Yes, it may be well constructed, but, IMHO, it is not worthy of The Listener

[cluelessJoe]

I'm firmly in the Mister Grumpy camp this week, despite having 14 or so 'answers' which should be enough to start grid filling if I can be bothered. Alternative preamble - "Of 40 answers, 20 are clued without definition. The others are unclued without definition. Wordplay in the 'clues' for which I could be bothered leads nowhere because there is no wordplay either".
Sorry, this is like a three course meal of porridge, followed by porridge, followed by porridge. Roll on next week!

[midazolam]

Yes and finishing the grid after 7 and a half hours of rather unexciting clue staring, I now cant be bothered to stare any longer at three of the clues, as I know I have the only answer that can possibly fit.

A typical example of what annoys me about these is an answer I had very early on making some sense but totally wrong:

The ivy straggling over the roof to pile often IN SPANdrils.

Pointer, next time give us some of your brilliance similar to what you have produced in the Magpie.

[tweaker]

One most certainly needs to be in the right frame of mind for solving this, certainly a different way of thinking/decoding is demanded here!

My first PD, a hell of alot different than the Listener's I've tackled.

[Zabadak]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to argue with anyone in a Mr Grumpy frame of mind but the IN SPANdrils answer just doesn't make any kind of sense. A better example would be the HELMET I originally got for grid II 3. I actually think there is a sense in common with more normal clues that an answer just looks and feels right, like good engineering. Given the structure, it's also arguable that, in the end, nothing is unclued. I guess it just exercises a different set of muscles and I'll probably be complaining in a fortnight when the number one mucks about with base 7 or something else my brain won't get round.

[daagg]

Zab, I had helmet as well, which caused a few issues with Grid 2. I came back to it after working out most of Grid 1, which came up with a much more elegant layout.

I guess we'll just have to wait for a Playfair to bring out a full scale grump.

[Zabadak]

Daagg, now you're talking. That and change ringing.

[daagg]

Oh, and Midazolam - what would the reaction be to having to submit a single square with an S in it?

[daagg]

Now change ringing I can do! Fire away.

[thebuzz999]

I defnitely side with the pro-Printers Devilry camp. This is a 'classic' Listener type of clue going back, I think, to Ximines. If you want more of these (and much more difficult, I think) try <http://home.freeuk.net/dharrison/ximenes/puz
z525.htm>.


I think Pointer did a really nice job with this - all of the 'corrected' clues have a nice surface reading. I also struggled the most with the robbers clue - very clever, I think.

[thebuzz999]

Maybe this time the URL will be usable... Media URL: http://home.freeuk.net/dharrison/ximenes/puzz525.htm
Description:

[starwalker]

It's only a Listener crossword, for heaven's sake ! And there was I thinking that the numericals could be divisive.
I thought that this made a pleasant change. Fairly straightforward after looking far more difficult than it really was. Probably one of those where the setter had more fun that many a solver.

[contendo]

I solved most of the clues in the first hour and then really struggled, getting nowhere for hours, muttering about the pointlessness of printer's devilries, but then came the PDM* and the rest filled out quite easily. The ingenuity of many of the reconstructed clues had me chuckling.
*I followed the Answerbank Listener threads for a while wondering what the relevance of either the Partido Democrata Mexicano or the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual was but in a PDM realised what PDM stood for.

[Ottorino]

I'm firmly in the Midazolam camp in re Printer's Devilry but I've a suspicion that the constraints placed on setters by the Listener's vetters are to blame.
Over the last couple of years or so, Pointer has produced for the Magpie some of the best ever and most original crosswords it has been my pleasure to solve ( or not!) There have been occasional glimpses of genius and some of these have been based on a variation of a Printer's Devilry theme,usually in conjunction with more normal clues and some gorgeous PDMs
Sadly, for me, this effort, while worthy,is not from Pointer's top drawer and seems to have been compiled with half an eye on the vetting police.

[trux]

(sorry to repeat for those who started on the "wrong" thread) .. I think I am in the pro-camp, having quite enjoyed this (so far) ... 17/20 clues done ... still no robbers but have an inkling but no further illumination .... and no flightless birds either ... each clue is a mini-PDM IMHO .... am plugging away but it's a bit of a slog