Can The Marxist Mantra Ever Work?

[naomi24]

This question arises from a conversation I had here earlier - and it’s something to talk about other than the miseries of Coronavirus so that can’t be a bad thing.

So … the Marxist Mantra -

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

Can that ever work in any society - and if not, why not?

[Atheist]

Naomi and others. Constant reference to the "Marxist Mantra" is a cheap rhetorical trick. What about the "Capitalist mantra", or the "christian mantra" or the "tantric mantra" or the atheist mantra"? You demean yourself by resorting to such language.

[naomi24]

SevenOP, //"according to Marx" @ 00:32 Sun 05th Apr 2020 were the exact words I used Naomi and "and your contention, SevenOP, that Marx had the answers" were what you converted them to.//

I did indeed but then I assumed you thought that Marx DID have the answers, Do you not?

Incidentally, if you could find it within yourself to dispense with the unnecessarily aggressive tone that permeates your posts to me it would make for rather more pleasant conversation.

Right, to your link. It told me nothing I hadn’t read before - except to confirm that in such a society a neurosurgeon would be treated no differently to a bus driver. Each would work, each would contribute his labour to the state, and each would receive according to his needs. Yes, it answered that question - but it didn’t explain why anyone would make the effort to become a neurosurgeon with all the education and responsibility that such an occupation requires when he would be no worse off driving a bus. Similarly, why would someone spend his life down a coal mine when he could reap the same benefit for being out in the sunshine driving a bus? It makes no sense.

I think that sort of society could only ever work if man became robot. In the real world the philosophy is naïve in the extreme. Completely unworkable - which is why Communist societies, that take no account of ambition or aspiration, collapse. People simply aren’t made that way. Furthermore, I’ve yet to see a Communist society (and I’ve seen quite a few) where this sort of equality exists. There is always … absolutely always … an elite. Four legs good, two legs better. Which would you choose to have, SevenOP? Four legs - or two legs?

[zebo]

Where has it ever worked? It certainly never worked in the USSR.

[sevenOP]

naomi @10:14 Mon 13th Apr 2020... "I did indeed but then I assumed you thought that Marx DID have the answers"

On what basis did you assume that?

[naomi24]

Oh, so you don't think he had the answers. How wise. My mistake then.

[ynnafymmi]

It didnt do much good for "Old Scarecrow",thats for sure.

[tomus42]

No, it can never work. It's an idealistic notion that would need human nature to change, which it never will.

[sevenOP]

Naomi--- "Oh, so you don't think he had the answers. How wise. My mistake then."

No, I never said that. That was your evasion of the question I *explicitly* asked you, viz,

"On what basis did you assume that? "

Is giving a straight answer a problem Naomi ?

[naomi24]

SevenOP, //Is giving a straight answer a problem Naomi ?//

Never - you should know that by now.- but I wish you’d make your mind up.

Take a look at this. In response to the question //Can that ever work in any society" ….

… you replied ….

//Yes, according to Marx, in the society he delineated the specific conditions under which such a creed would be applicable.//

So did Marx have the answer or didn’t he? If that question doesn’t present a problem to you a straight answer would be good.

[sevenOP]

So //Yes, according to Marx,/// also means Yes according to 7op?

"So did Marx have the answer or didn’t he? If that question doesn’t present a problem to you a straight answer would be good."

I already told you Marx set that 'Mantra' only at the culmination of specific conditions being achieved, Links for which achieving those conditions I have already posted.

We have a problem here Naomi, in that your ingrained dogma may be inhibiting you to impartial interpretation e.g.

from http://www.politicalaffairs.net/you-might-be-a-marxist-if-you-believe-in-from-each-according-to-their-abilities-to-each-according-to-their-needs/ you manage to infer "It told me nothing I hadn’t read before - except to confirm that in such a society a neurosurgeon would be treated no differently to a bus driver" -- which it DID not, it said no such thing, it EXPLICITLY said they would be treated as to their genuine needs.

"I’ve yet to see a Communist society (and I’ve seen quite a few) where this sort of equality exists."

Notwithstanding, you have never seen a society where Marx's end point "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" would apply, as it has never been one.

[naomi24]

No there hasn’t - and there never will be - thank goodness.

[ynnafymmi]

Stalin and Mao tried to make socialism work.Both failed.Millions died.

[sevenOP]

ynnafymmi, what form of socialism did Stalin and Mao try to make work and when and why did they fail? ( just asking to Learn )

[tomus42]

That's sort of the point isn't it 7op? It can never work because it can never be implemented properly. It is incompatible with human nature, which means any attempt to create a truly socialist society ultimately ends up as a godawful dictatorship.

[sevenOP]

"Notwithstanding, you have never seen a society where Marx's end point "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" would apply, as it has never been ~~ one."

Sorry, sloppy posting by me, should read 'as it has never been done.' i.e. the specific conditions have never been put in place to justify "The Marxist Mantra".

tomus42 - "That's sort of the point isn't it 7op? It can never work because it can never be implemented properly. It is incompatible with human nature,"

I am not sure what 'point' you are referring to tomus42, if you clarify I will answer.
If you mean it can never be implemented properly as it is incompatible with human nature, I do not know that, and neither do you as it has never been tried in the very specific circumstances Marx stated.

Do you think the circumstances that will definitively end all wars will never occur tomus42 ?

[tomus42]

Tell me what those specific circumstances are, and I'll tell you whether I think they'll occur.

What I do know is that there's never been period in human history when some kind of war hasn't been being waged, so it doesn't look likely.

[sevenOP]

tomus42 - "Tell me what those specific circumstances are, and I'll tell you whether I think they'll occur."

I did not state any conditions, but I can think of a few.

tomus42 - "What I do know is that there's never been period in human history when some kind of war hasn't been being waged, so it doesn't look likely."

Unfortunately if things do not change enormously, I agree.

[Theland]

Some of the previous posts have touched on the truth.
If you tried to build a house using inferior bricks, it would keep falling down before it was completed.
Extra strengtheners would have to be introduced to maintain progress.
So trying to build a Utopian society would similarly require strengtheners, such as draconian laws, and a powerful Police force to apply them, widespread surveillance, and harsh prison sentences for non compliance.
In other words, to build the house needs good quality bricks.
To build a society needs good quality people, that is, people who have a new heart, devoid of selfishness and full of love for others.
Unless that happens, a Marxist society is just a false dream, or rather, nightmare.

[Theland]

Even lots of vodka didn't help.

[naomi24]

Good hearts don’t come into it. Rather stupidity. You’d have to be stupid to say I’ll work my socks off getting qualifications and taking responsibility, or even working down a coal mine, while you bimble around driving a bus for the same reward.