Is It Almost Time For People To Take Responsibility For Themselves?

[naomi24]

Isolation is creating serious social and personal problems so since the situation with the virus seems to be stabilising somewhat, when this current session of lockdown ends should people be allowed to take responsibility for themselves? Whilst the vulnerable may - and must - choose to remain in isolation, should those who aren’t designated vulnerable be allowed to return to work and to normal life with businesses, pubs and clubs opening up again resulting in life, for them - and the economy - returning to normal?

[Zacs-Master]

Just answer my points as an adult then, instead of coming across like a child who’s clearly been made to look a bit daft.

1. How will the ‘choice’ work?
2. Why do you not think a relaxation carries the risk of a resurgence?

[naomi24]

No, zacs. You're trolling - again - as is your wont. Either speak to people here properly - or buzz off before you ruin yet another thread.

[AuntPollyGrey]

Seriously? Is this what AB is coming to? Children squabbling over you said, she said, I never said that. Jesus...……….

[Zacs-Master]

Oh, we got here years ago, APG. You should have seen it before chatterbank.

[jim360]

Well then, maybe treat it like a discussion and explain why you think it would work, what studies you've done to indicate that it would work, what metric you'll measure success by, etc etc. Just saying "I think it would work" isn't a discussion.

[NickorWan]

//should those who aren’t designated vulnerable be allowed to return to work and to normal life with businesses, pubs and clubs opening up again resulting in life, for them - and the economy - returning to normal?//

I think that is an impossible situation. Normal is a long way away no matter when lock down ends. Can anyone imagine everybody going about their life as before when the threat is still out there? I certainly can’t.

[naomi24]

Jim, I haven’t carried out studies, but frankly if the ‘expert’ the government is taking advice from has been proven very wrong in the past - as he has - all I can say is so much for studies. All I know is billions of people who aren’t considered vulnerable are suffering - in my opinion unnecessarily - and the economy is in dire peril. If you disagree, that’s your prerogative - but don’t tell me you disagree because science always gets it right. It doesn’t - and we know it doesn't.

[Dagman]

Whoever makes any decision on relaxing lockdown will be damned if they do and damned if they don't because the outcome either way is more death. Some will say more have died because of the decision made comparing it to their uninformed imaginations. Having serious social problems etc in my uninformed imagination is better than being... Dead! That's my opinion, won't change it nor rise to any comments on it.

[Zacs-Master]

But you’ve pointed out why it’s necessary by mentioning the key workers who a relaxation would be putting in danger. The US has been the most lax country and their figures are by far the worst which would seem to suggest a correlation between freedom of movement an coronavirus. Do you agree?

[calmck]

We have been in lockdown since March 13. The infection and death rate here is reasonably low but the population is also lower. All parks and beaches are closed and this is being respected. There are less people out exercising than appears to be the case in the UK. Shopping and distancing is going well. Never had a loo roll situation. Large pet shops are delivering for free and electrical stores also for a minimum order of 25 euros. Home schooling has restarted with a fairly impressive programme for the government facilities and an excellent one for two of the fee paying schools the grandkids go to. After the May holiday is being talked about as possible relaxation with day nursery care and hairdressers being the first said to be being considered to open first. Being at risk I will continue to be careful and follow the news re infection rate to consider what I will do. I think careful consideration should be taken regarding the opening of pubs, restaurants and gyms

[naomi24]

calmck, where are you?

[jim360]

// ... don’t tell me you disagree because science always gets it right. It doesn’t - and we know it doesn't. //

Since I was never planning on telling you this, it makes me wonder why you felt a need to mention it.

I'm fine with health policy being designed to try and avoid the worst, rather than winging it, hoping for the best, and shrugging our shoulders when it turns out that not taking precautions magically turns out to have increased the resulting death toll.

As to the "so much for studies", I fear you are missing the point, as usual, about scientific modelling. In the first place it's clearly impossible to be right anyway: the very nature of a model is that it will be in one way or another simplified and therefore missing something. In the second place, proper modelling is meant to inform and guide the discussion, allowing people to make concrete their ideas and turn speculation into something quantitative and understandable. "If we do this then this will probably happen, if we don't then you can expect outcome B" is still useful, especially as we can *only* test alternative histories this way.

And, finally, in such situations as these, the modelling should be seen as a warning of what can happen if we do nothing, not a guarantee that nothing matters.

I'd rather back, then, the experts who have studied this, even if they prove wrong sometimes, over the non-experts who haven't, who are even more certain to be wrong.

[jim360]

// ... the economy is in dire peril. //

So are people's lives. I know which one I value more. The economy will recover.

In any case, no need to be so pessimistic. I'd hate to be so cloudy as you all the time... lighten up! Things will be OK, stop spreading misery and doom-mongering etc etc.

[naomi24]

Jim, I've heard that all before - many times. The question was, //Is It Almost Time For People To Take Responsibility For Themselves?//

Your answer I gather is 'No'. Okay.

[jim360]

My answer is that it isn't time for the lockdown to end. If that amounts to the same thing as people "not being ready to take responsibility for themselves", I'm sorry you see it that way, although it isn't meant like that. A global health crisis like this is bigger than the individual, that's the real point.

[naomi24]

Jim, //If that amounts to the same thing as people "not being ready to take responsibility for themselves",//

The question isn’t about ‘people not being ready …’

//A global health crisis like this is bigger than the individual,//

Information surplus to requirements Jim. We all know why we’re in lockdown.

… and incidentally … // In any case, no need to be so pessimistic. I'd hate to be so cloudy as you all the time... lighten up! Things will be OK, stop spreading misery and doom-mongering etc etc.//

….imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thank you.

[jim360]

I was beginning to worry that you'd missed it.