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Should We Create A Third Gender?
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Given all the controversy over the transgender issue and whether or not men who self-identify as women should be allowed to use women’s facilities, should we establish an accepted third gender as I believe some other countries have, and allocate those people separate spaces?
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//
"...the other factor that was overlooked in the post is that most of the sexual assaults in prisons involve women attacking other women or men attacking other men."
That’s skirting the issue completely. //
It isn't skirting the issue to acknowledge that the problem that prompted this post is just a small part of a larger problem. In particular, the claim I am making is that it wouldn't matter *where* you housed trans people, if adequate resources were in place to ensure that the would-be sexual abusers among them were effectively denied the opportunity. Merely creating separate prison facilities solves nothing.
To Pixie's post, specifically:
// Transgender people in prison, as a percentage (Jim will know) have attacked, far more than women have. //
Statistics on this type of abuse are not readily available enough to know anything, really. For example, in 2016-2019, there were something in the region of 100 reported sexual assaults in women's prisons, of which 7 are attributed to those who were born male but identified as women. There are at least two obvious deficiencies with such a statistic: firstly, this doesn't take into account unreported incidents. Secondly, any transpeople who have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate are in fact included in the remaining 90-odd reported incidents. There is no information, nor is there ever likely to be, on how many of these 90-odd assaults were by transitioned transwomen. Could be none, some, most, or all, take your pick.
Still, it seems safe to say that, proportionally, transwomen are far more likely to be victims than assailants. We should also be in agreement that "pre-crime" isn't a thing.
Finally, it seems to me that what Naomi is advocating for is along the lines of a "separate but equal" approach to trans people. Fair enough, as far as it goes, but historically the precedents aren't great for such approaches. Firstly, such approaches are rarely successful at maintaining equality (especially if, as in this case, one of the separated groups is treated with suspicion or is a minority, so that the society is less inclined to give them truly equal treatment); secondly, because the very creation of separation is based on the premise that the groups should be kept apart at all, which is kind of the entire debate here. If in prisons, why not also everywhere else? By creating separate facilities, are we implying that transpeople are inherently more of a threat to the rest of society? Or vice versa? Any measure that separates two groups, and so implicitly sets them against each other, is discomfiting.
This is, I think, separate to the question of whether we should create a third gender or not. The answer is most certainly yes to that, by the way, although probably not for the same reasons that Naomi has in mind.
"...the other factor that was overlooked in the post is that most of the sexual assaults in prisons involve women attacking other women or men attacking other men."
That’s skirting the issue completely. //
It isn't skirting the issue to acknowledge that the problem that prompted this post is just a small part of a larger problem. In particular, the claim I am making is that it wouldn't matter *where* you housed trans people, if adequate resources were in place to ensure that the would-be sexual abusers among them were effectively denied the opportunity. Merely creating separate prison facilities solves nothing.
To Pixie's post, specifically:
// Transgender people in prison, as a percentage (Jim will know) have attacked, far more than women have. //
Statistics on this type of abuse are not readily available enough to know anything, really. For example, in 2016-2019, there were something in the region of 100 reported sexual assaults in women's prisons, of which 7 are attributed to those who were born male but identified as women. There are at least two obvious deficiencies with such a statistic: firstly, this doesn't take into account unreported incidents. Secondly, any transpeople who have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate are in fact included in the remaining 90-odd reported incidents. There is no information, nor is there ever likely to be, on how many of these 90-odd assaults were by transitioned transwomen. Could be none, some, most, or all, take your pick.
Still, it seems safe to say that, proportionally, transwomen are far more likely to be victims than assailants. We should also be in agreement that "pre-crime" isn't a thing.
Finally, it seems to me that what Naomi is advocating for is along the lines of a "separate but equal" approach to trans people. Fair enough, as far as it goes, but historically the precedents aren't great for such approaches. Firstly, such approaches are rarely successful at maintaining equality (especially if, as in this case, one of the separated groups is treated with suspicion or is a minority, so that the society is less inclined to give them truly equal treatment); secondly, because the very creation of separation is based on the premise that the groups should be kept apart at all, which is kind of the entire debate here. If in prisons, why not also everywhere else? By creating separate facilities, are we implying that transpeople are inherently more of a threat to the rest of society? Or vice versa? Any measure that separates two groups, and so implicitly sets them against each other, is discomfiting.
This is, I think, separate to the question of whether we should create a third gender or not. The answer is most certainly yes to that, by the way, although probably not for the same reasons that Naomi has in mind.
You are wrong, Jim. You start off claiming there aren't enough statistics to prove that transgender males commit the same amount of violent crime as other males (30 years worth), but then go on to claim there are enough stats to show they are most likely to be victims of violent crime. And actually- even if it were true. It's nearly always by other men.
It is them who need educating. To allow people to be themselves. Women shouldn't be put at extra risk (literally), because some men won't accept their own.
This is exactly the reason, the causes, the circumstances, where and why we are allowed to discriminate with sex in the first place. Those reasons, haven't changed.
It is them who need educating. To allow people to be themselves. Women shouldn't be put at extra risk (literally), because some men won't accept their own.
This is exactly the reason, the causes, the circumstances, where and why we are allowed to discriminate with sex in the first place. Those reasons, haven't changed.
Read Jung on the anima & animus - there is no need for a third sex;
the anima and animus are described in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology as part of his theory of the collective unconscious. Jung described the animus as the unconscious masculine side of a woman, and the anima as the unconscious feminine side of a man, each transcending the personal psyche, so where would that place a member of a third sex? - lost in space I think.
the anima and animus are described in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology as part of his theory of the collective unconscious. Jung described the animus as the unconscious masculine side of a woman, and the anima as the unconscious feminine side of a man, each transcending the personal psyche, so where would that place a member of a third sex? - lost in space I think.
I think we all know that, khandro. Men can be feminine, women can be masculine. The question is more, should that define your sex? We have spent thousands of years trying to get away from that.
Should being male or female, be biological, or psychological? And why?
And, I have asked this, but never got an answer...
What does a transgender male have im common with a woman... that he doesn't also have in common with another man?
Should being male or female, be biological, or psychological? And why?
And, I have asked this, but never got an answer...
What does a transgender male have im common with a woman... that he doesn't also have in common with another man?
// I'm also confused... are you claiming people with a GCC "are" transgender or not? You've said both now. //
Yes, they are. For the purposes of prison statistics, however, transgender people with a GRC and those without have to be differentiated. Those that have a GRC are treated legally according to their assigned gender, and therefore are counted amongst women. The seven assaults attributed to trans people in women's prisons then refers specifically to those who do not have a GRC.
I should also point out that almost everything in my posts was referring specifically to prison statistics. I haven't looked recently at any others. I also wish to stress that I agree wholeheartedly with the point that men need, and should be given, better education about the risks that women can face and what they can do, beyond the bare minimum, to reduce those risks.
Yes, they are. For the purposes of prison statistics, however, transgender people with a GRC and those without have to be differentiated. Those that have a GRC are treated legally according to their assigned gender, and therefore are counted amongst women. The seven assaults attributed to trans people in women's prisons then refers specifically to those who do not have a GRC.
I should also point out that almost everything in my posts was referring specifically to prison statistics. I haven't looked recently at any others. I also wish to stress that I agree wholeheartedly with the point that men need, and should be given, better education about the risks that women can face and what they can do, beyond the bare minimum, to reduce those risks.
Your last paragraph seems a great start and compromise, that I totally agree with.
Out of interest, you know, I assume, that the "violent" and "sexual" crime statistics for males.... are no different between males, pre-op, or post-op. As far as women are concerned- they are an equal risk. Far higher than another woman or transgender female.
That obviously, doesn't mean "all men"- but the differences are massive. Can you understand, why, im certain more vulnerable situations, women feel more comfortable with just each other?
Out of interest, you know, I assume, that the "violent" and "sexual" crime statistics for males.... are no different between males, pre-op, or post-op. As far as women are concerned- they are an equal risk. Far higher than another woman or transgender female.
That obviously, doesn't mean "all men"- but the differences are massive. Can you understand, why, im certain more vulnerable situations, women feel more comfortable with just each other?
The seven incidents were about trans people in women's prisons. I think at least 2 were by the same person -- Karen White -- but I also think that a lot of the information isn't available. I don't have the data right now for similar breakdown, for attacks carried out by vs. perpetrated by transpeople in men's prisons. And it may not even be available either.
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