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An Eye For An Eye
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Is 'An eye for an eye' really a good concept to live by?
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Case 11- My own wife was Christian but converted to Islam. I did not scare her with sword. She liked my character and Muslim life style.
Now your facts � 4 witnesses you are referring has nothing to do with rape. It is to do with adultery. So that people should not blame someone just to get him/her in trouble and because the punishment of adultery is severe in Islam, then the Accuser has to bring 4 witnesses to prove the Allegation. If not then the accuser would be flogged. So think about it and you would appreciate the reason behind it.
2 women equal to 1 man only in financial matters. Because women are usually house wives and has no link and knowledge about financial maters. Otherwise even one woman can be a witness. "And those who launch a chargeagainst their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own - their solitary evidence can be received."[Al-Qur�an 24:6]
About all the rest. I would say only one thing that according to you Islam oppresses woman. This is a very common misconception. There is no cure for this apart from saying that all the people who are converting to Islam, over 70% are women. So obviously they are finding something else apart from oppression.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/w_main.htm
Now your facts � 4 witnesses you are referring has nothing to do with rape. It is to do with adultery. So that people should not blame someone just to get him/her in trouble and because the punishment of adultery is severe in Islam, then the Accuser has to bring 4 witnesses to prove the Allegation. If not then the accuser would be flogged. So think about it and you would appreciate the reason behind it.
2 women equal to 1 man only in financial matters. Because women are usually house wives and has no link and knowledge about financial maters. Otherwise even one woman can be a witness. "And those who launch a chargeagainst their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own - their solitary evidence can be received."[Al-Qur�an 24:6]
About all the rest. I would say only one thing that according to you Islam oppresses woman. This is a very common misconception. There is no cure for this apart from saying that all the people who are converting to Islam, over 70% are women. So obviously they are finding something else apart from oppression.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/w_main.htm
keyplus
Sorry�. if you are raped, to ensure that you are not accused of adultery, you need 4 witnesses to the rape. If you cannot provide 4 witnesses then you are obviously making it up, are guilty of adultery and flogged?
I�ve been scratching my head for a few minutes and I can�t help thinking that there is something inherently wrong with that form of �justice�. I can�t quite put my finger on it, but are we to assume then that Shiah expects 4 people to witness it and not intervene and then bear witness in the court? Lets hope they are impartial then.
Incidentally, those cases may be embellished through propaganda, but many of the people bought to Deera Square for justice were very low working class foreigners (usually Filipino, Pakistani or Indian servants) who were in all likelihood tortured to confess, and then paraded in a drunken or drugged stupor before the bloodthirsty crowd before having their punishment delivered.
None of this even remotely apears to be 'eye for eye' to me.
Do not even try to gainsay me on this, or even endorse this form of �justice�.
Sorry�. if you are raped, to ensure that you are not accused of adultery, you need 4 witnesses to the rape. If you cannot provide 4 witnesses then you are obviously making it up, are guilty of adultery and flogged?
I�ve been scratching my head for a few minutes and I can�t help thinking that there is something inherently wrong with that form of �justice�. I can�t quite put my finger on it, but are we to assume then that Shiah expects 4 people to witness it and not intervene and then bear witness in the court? Lets hope they are impartial then.
Incidentally, those cases may be embellished through propaganda, but many of the people bought to Deera Square for justice were very low working class foreigners (usually Filipino, Pakistani or Indian servants) who were in all likelihood tortured to confess, and then paraded in a drunken or drugged stupor before the bloodthirsty crowd before having their punishment delivered.
None of this even remotely apears to be 'eye for eye' to me.
Do not even try to gainsay me on this, or even endorse this form of �justice�.
Octavius � Again either you could not understand or I did not make it clear enough. What I said that 4 witnesses has nothing to do with rape at all. You can not expect 4 people standing there watching a rape being carried upon a poor victim and they did not do anything. And you said that yourself.
I am not a Mufti, so I never argue. Because there are more people in this world who can explain in detail. http://jadmadi.net/blog/2007/09/26/penalty-for -adultery-in-islam/
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/d oes-islam-require-four-witnesses-for-rape/
As far as your last bit is concerned. I have already said that to implicate these punishments you need to have a just ruler and the justice system. However if you feel they were mostly working class people from Philippine, Pakistan and India then I can not say any thing about that. That is for the justice system to decide. I have no doubt that if they made biased decision on the basis of prejudice then they would be answerable. Mistakes can happen in any legal system. I have never said that Saudi Arabia have the perfect system. Because right now there is not even a single country with full Sharia laws in the world. But as much as they have you can see the effect of that. Seems like you have been to Saudi Arabia, I only went there once for two weeks. Tell me how many people have you really seen there with one hand chopped off. Also tell me what is the situation there of theft and shop lifting. Please tell me if you have seen any jewellery shops there with Time delay locks and Gun men guarding it.
I am not a Mufti, so I never argue. Because there are more people in this world who can explain in detail. http://jadmadi.net/blog/2007/09/26/penalty-for -adultery-in-islam/
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/d oes-islam-require-four-witnesses-for-rape/
As far as your last bit is concerned. I have already said that to implicate these punishments you need to have a just ruler and the justice system. However if you feel they were mostly working class people from Philippine, Pakistan and India then I can not say any thing about that. That is for the justice system to decide. I have no doubt that if they made biased decision on the basis of prejudice then they would be answerable. Mistakes can happen in any legal system. I have never said that Saudi Arabia have the perfect system. Because right now there is not even a single country with full Sharia laws in the world. But as much as they have you can see the effect of that. Seems like you have been to Saudi Arabia, I only went there once for two weeks. Tell me how many people have you really seen there with one hand chopped off. Also tell me what is the situation there of theft and shop lifting. Please tell me if you have seen any jewellery shops there with Time delay locks and Gun men guarding it.
Sorry forgot one thing. Who said to you that Islam believes in an Eye for an eye any way. Islam believes in Justice. That justice can be served by following the God given laws only with complete fairness. As you said yourself, that an eye for an eye really means that someone who raped should be raped. Does not make sense does it.
Keyplus, I knew you would try to defend it with some twisted logic, there is not a piece of carrion you will not chew on is there.
So if a family, say, take umbrage with a man, they can trot along to the court to claim rape and support the allegation�.. and this exonerates the woman - whether she has been raped or not � as it �proves� she was not adulterous? What of the man then, presumably he is castrated?
Sorry I cannot be bothered to read links.
The problem with mistakes made in the Shiah justice system is they are most often irreversible. Shiah judges would never admit a mistake, merely claim it was the will of God that a lesson has been learnt. Pah!
Of course Saudi Arabia is full of crime. Most of it is against women and the poor and immigrants, crime inflicted upon them by the ruling male class and crime that is always carried out behind closed doors. So you will never see it. And to say that Shiah justice is 'carried out by God given laws in fairness' is rather lame, most of it was formulated in an era where swords and sandals ruled, by men who craved power and suppression of the multitude through simple medieval brutality.
If you think that it is a perfect crime free society, then I would suggest you try living there.
So if a family, say, take umbrage with a man, they can trot along to the court to claim rape and support the allegation�.. and this exonerates the woman - whether she has been raped or not � as it �proves� she was not adulterous? What of the man then, presumably he is castrated?
Sorry I cannot be bothered to read links.
The problem with mistakes made in the Shiah justice system is they are most often irreversible. Shiah judges would never admit a mistake, merely claim it was the will of God that a lesson has been learnt. Pah!
Of course Saudi Arabia is full of crime. Most of it is against women and the poor and immigrants, crime inflicted upon them by the ruling male class and crime that is always carried out behind closed doors. So you will never see it. And to say that Shiah justice is 'carried out by God given laws in fairness' is rather lame, most of it was formulated in an era where swords and sandals ruled, by men who craved power and suppression of the multitude through simple medieval brutality.
If you think that it is a perfect crime free society, then I would suggest you try living there.
I would live where I like to live, If you do not agree with something which does not suit your desires then that is your problem. Saudi Arabia might have crime as you said but they do not have highest rate of illegitimate children and teenage pregnancies in the world. You can not read the link because you can not digest the truth. I am sure if you have read that you would have found few things to twist more in your favour. But the truth is that people who studied all the religions in the world later on found answers to their questions in Islam. They probably are wrong. You are referring to the same excuse against Islam. Spread by Sword. And then in response I always ask one question. If that is true then, why when Muslims got defeated in Spain after almost 900 years, why in India where they ruled about five hundred years. Why non Muslims were still in Majority there. Can you give me a reference as you have enough knowledge about any Muslim army that invaded Indonesia which is the largest Islamic country in the world. I will wait for that.
Er no. And I don't really understand what in Dicken's name you are wittering on about now anyway to be honest.
I disagree with the death penalty wherever it exists. It is not a deterant, otherwise it would no longer be necessary would it. I have every respect for Islam. But not so much for the radical and fundamental interpretation of it by the select few.
If I do not agree to something that does not suit my desires that is my prerogative, not a problem. My problem lies with people who try to justify those acts of evil against their fellow humans.
I thank you.
Amen.
I disagree with the death penalty wherever it exists. It is not a deterant, otherwise it would no longer be necessary would it. I have every respect for Islam. But not so much for the radical and fundamental interpretation of it by the select few.
If I do not agree to something that does not suit my desires that is my prerogative, not a problem. My problem lies with people who try to justify those acts of evil against their fellow humans.
I thank you.
Amen.
Whooooopie!!!!!This is my hundereth answer !!!!!!!!
Quote:
"As many of your cases are just cooked stories by the people who are afraid of rising Islam so I will ignore the one just does not make sense. I would love to have some references where did you get these cases from. And where did you get the idea that the punishments are according to Islamic Shariah."
Well I lived 2 years in the U.K and 16 years in Saudi.I just left the country this January.These are cases I read in the "Arab news" the leading English Daily in Arabia.Many of these cases are from Saudi and a few are from other Muslim countries which follow Shariah.
Quote:
"First 3 cases are just propaganda"
You may close your yeas and cry BUT the first three cases are unfortunately True.
Quote:
"Case 4 � Yes Islam does not allow a female who has grown to puberty with someone who is not family member. She was 14 and might be having a sexual relationship with that 45 years old. That is the reason Saudi Arabia is not on record teenage illegal pregnancies list."
Too bad this case happened one 1 or 2 years ago and the relation was not sexual.
Quote:
"Case 5 � Marriage is a sacred and respected relation. If man says Talak then Islam asks them to sort it with the help of relatives. Unless Talak is given at 3 diff times they can still make it up. Otherwise there is no difference between human and animal. Whenever need sex make it up as many time as possible. Saying in sleep and no contact is just exaggeration on your part so I will ignore that"
Whatever you might say this vase took place in aShariah Court in India.
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"Case 6 � completely shows your ignorance about Islam. In Islam woman can not marry woman. Does not make difference which tribe is she from."
That was a typo.I meant man and woman. The couple are still apart.
Quote:
"As many of your cases are just cooked stories by the people who are afraid of rising Islam so I will ignore the one just does not make sense. I would love to have some references where did you get these cases from. And where did you get the idea that the punishments are according to Islamic Shariah."
Well I lived 2 years in the U.K and 16 years in Saudi.I just left the country this January.These are cases I read in the "Arab news" the leading English Daily in Arabia.Many of these cases are from Saudi and a few are from other Muslim countries which follow Shariah.
Quote:
"First 3 cases are just propaganda"
You may close your yeas and cry BUT the first three cases are unfortunately True.
Quote:
"Case 4 � Yes Islam does not allow a female who has grown to puberty with someone who is not family member. She was 14 and might be having a sexual relationship with that 45 years old. That is the reason Saudi Arabia is not on record teenage illegal pregnancies list."
Too bad this case happened one 1 or 2 years ago and the relation was not sexual.
Quote:
"Case 5 � Marriage is a sacred and respected relation. If man says Talak then Islam asks them to sort it with the help of relatives. Unless Talak is given at 3 diff times they can still make it up. Otherwise there is no difference between human and animal. Whenever need sex make it up as many time as possible. Saying in sleep and no contact is just exaggeration on your part so I will ignore that"
Whatever you might say this vase took place in aShariah Court in India.
Quote:
"Case 6 � completely shows your ignorance about Islam. In Islam woman can not marry woman. Does not make difference which tribe is she from."
That was a typo.I meant man and woman. The couple are still apart.
Quote:
"Case 7 � Man injured accidentally or purposely that is for the court to decide. As far as taking the eye out is concerned, then that is not in Islam. Again reference please where you got this from"
Reference-"Arab News" The person attacked was an Indian. The king forgave him last year.
Quote:
"Case 8 & 9 � Ok forget about Saudi Arabia. How many example can you give me in the UK where you heard a Muslim family found guilty of sexually or physically abusing their children. How many Muslim Pedophiles have you seen so far. Examples please."
There are a lot more cases of pedos and sexual abuse of maids here in Saudi. I will give them in the next post.
Quote:
"Case 10- Extra marital relation. Yes Islam does not allow that. Otherwise there is no respect between wife and husband. Again no difference between human and animal. You only have to see around you to see the consequences of extra marital relation"
Death that too by stoning is BARBARIC,
"Case 7 � Man injured accidentally or purposely that is for the court to decide. As far as taking the eye out is concerned, then that is not in Islam. Again reference please where you got this from"
Reference-"Arab News" The person attacked was an Indian. The king forgave him last year.
Quote:
"Case 8 & 9 � Ok forget about Saudi Arabia. How many example can you give me in the UK where you heard a Muslim family found guilty of sexually or physically abusing their children. How many Muslim Pedophiles have you seen so far. Examples please."
There are a lot more cases of pedos and sexual abuse of maids here in Saudi. I will give them in the next post.
Quote:
"Case 10- Extra marital relation. Yes Islam does not allow that. Otherwise there is no respect between wife and husband. Again no difference between human and animal. You only have to see around you to see the consequences of extra marital relation"
Death that too by stoning is BARBARIC,
I've lived in Saudi for 16 years.Many cases of pedos,incest and sexual maid abuse take place nearly daily here.I don't need to mention any.Read "Arab News" online for examples.
Quote:
"Because right now there is not even a single country with full Sharia laws in the world."
The totally messed up justice system here is based on Shariah of course.
Quote:
"Tell me how many people have you really seen there with one hand chopped off. Also tell me what is the situation there of theft and shop lifting. Please tell me if you have seen any jewellery shops there with Time delay locks and Gun men guarding it."
Thefts take place in broad daylight everyday.I lost my N-95 last May in the street at mid-noon and no-one cared to help stop the thieves.Last December the Mobile shop across my road was ransacked. Women can't go out anywhere without threat of being harassed by teens.Men over 20 come and bump or flirt or whistle at girls as young as 11-12 in malls and the street.Everyday "Vice Cops" harass non-Muslim women to cover their head properly, ruin parties(no alcohol) and prayer groups conducting prayers at homes.
Muhammad spread the religion by THREAT.He gave an ultimatum of 3 days for a kingdoms to embrace Islam or suffer being crushed.
No other religious messenger Jesus or Buddha or Mahavira etc had the stain of blood on their hands.
Quote:
"Because right now there is not even a single country with full Sharia laws in the world."
The totally messed up justice system here is based on Shariah of course.
Quote:
"Tell me how many people have you really seen there with one hand chopped off. Also tell me what is the situation there of theft and shop lifting. Please tell me if you have seen any jewellery shops there with Time delay locks and Gun men guarding it."
Thefts take place in broad daylight everyday.I lost my N-95 last May in the street at mid-noon and no-one cared to help stop the thieves.Last December the Mobile shop across my road was ransacked. Women can't go out anywhere without threat of being harassed by teens.Men over 20 come and bump or flirt or whistle at girls as young as 11-12 in malls and the street.Everyday "Vice Cops" harass non-Muslim women to cover their head properly, ruin parties(no alcohol) and prayer groups conducting prayers at homes.
Muhammad spread the religion by THREAT.He gave an ultimatum of 3 days for a kingdoms to embrace Islam or suffer being crushed.
No other religious messenger Jesus or Buddha or Mahavira etc had the stain of blood on their hands.
Robb- Answer when you come back but I would say one thing. You did the right thing by leaving Saudi Arabia. And if I believe even 50% what you are saying is true then. There is only one reason. May be they are trying to use other failed systems only to make their Western lords happy. They need a proper Shariah Law. Nothing else. As far as Islam is concerned, that neither depends on what you think nor what I say about it. It is a true an practical religion and That is the reason people are entering into it. And Insha Allah you will keep on watching it. I have nothing more to say.
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