An Eye For An Eye

[randomater]

Is 'An eye for an eye' really a good concept to live by?

[Octavius]

Surely though in exercising this concept there would be no end. The Ghandi 'who world blind' analogy was spot on.

If an executioner took a life, ergo someone would need to take his life and so on....

[Octavius]

err.. 'whole world would be blind'. too many w's

[keyplus90]

Ocatvius - Executioner took the life because of the law.
Jake - You do not make law according to the will of the victim. You make the law tp deter the criminal. Once there are no criminals there would be no victims.

[Androcles]

No - we just ignore the victims altogether! How dare they complain about getting a beating - they should just lie down and take a good kicking like a proper victim should.

[Octavius]

Keyplus, so the law maker should be killed then?

[keyplus90]

Octavius- Yes you should kill the law maker if you think the law maker who makes the laws to punish murderer, drug dealer, rapists, pedophiles is as dangerous as a murderer, drug dealer, rapist and a pedophiles.

But then what would happen, people will start making their own laws, and that is exactly the person in Wizard's example did. They will start taking their own revenge. And we will keep on going round and round in the circles.

[Octavius]

But that is what an eye for an eye is about. Although, in truth isn't a rapist meant to be raped in true context of this concept? Executing them might seem just a little bit extreme in the eye4eye model?

Supposing the murderer who is executed was exercising his right to take an eye for an eye in the first place?

[keyplus90]

An eye for an eye is just an expression. It does not exactly mean that. It means that the justice should be served in the best possible form to reduce the crime. I will agree with you if you bring any law or punishment which would reduce the crime, being it murder, rape, child sex or physical abuse whatever. I would be the first one to lift my hand to support any law which practically would reduce all these ill factors if not completely eradicate them. As I think it is impossible to completely abolish these things.

[Octavius]

No, it is a quotation from Exodus in which a person who has taken the eye of another in a fight is instructed to give his own eye in compensation. Seemingly, the belief that one of the purposes of the law is to provide equitable retaliation for an offended party. It defined and restricted the extent of retaliation, in a set of codes set out by Hammurabi, king of Babylon.

I would suggest the Q proposes the simplest form as a way of life � mirror punishment � since effectively we really do still live in a time that prescribes particular penalties for particular crimes, albeit without medieval capital punishment or residual compensation value for a persons life (You killed my husband, you owe me 3 goats, 2 pigs and a turnip).

The problem with your example of murder is that there is no distinction between accidental manslaughter, self defence and deliberate murder. Hence it just becomes a vengeful retribution - and as we all know, one of those could lead to another etc etc. The Babylonian laws put a limit on such actions, restricting the retribution to be no worse than the crime, as long as victim and offender occupied the same status in society. This is something from my experience of Deera Square, Riyadh that was simply lacking, more often street entertainment and the parading of peasants for the vulgar humour of the barbaric upper echelons.

[Goodsoulette]

Octavius, I believe the meaning of that changed for christians, in the old testament it is said an eye for an eye but in the new testament, Jesus says that the law is weak and a new covenant should be made and then urges people to "turn the other cheek" to those that do you harm. Or is that not right?

Religion is open to interpretation, I suppose.

[Octavius]

Yes Goods, but even I couldn't abide that level of pacifism. That was meant to be a precursor to 'do unto your brother as you would have done unto you'. Basically, if you don't strike me, then I won't strike you back. but if you do strike me, I will turn the other cheek. My brother however will knock your block off, jump up and down on your severed head and roll your corpse into the chasm. Or something along those lines anyway.

In reality, if someone put a hand towards my cheek, I'd be flattered, especially if she was really nice.

[Goodsoulette]

and I had you pegged as the answerbank Gandhi, I shall sob into my pillow after brushing away my shattered illusions.

[Octavius]

Shattering misguided illusions is the reality of my life.
But I do have some sandals (Adidas Messiah's) if that helps.

[Robb Phoenix]

1.A couple of years in jail with torture in the beginning(equivalent
to the assault he perpetuated) and time to repent in the end will set even the worst of criminals right.
2.Drug dealers must do community service and convert (a specific number) of addicts.
3.For repeat pedos and rapists amputation would be enough.
4.Only the worst of the worst like Hitler deserve death.
5.Oh and apart from (1) murderers must also pay the .immediate family re compensation(nearly all his wealth).

[Goodsoulette]

Ill feel much better if you go out and buy some real Jesus creepers.

[keyplus90]

With due respect to all Christians, that is the problem with Bible. One book says one thing and another would contradict that. Because these are the personal views of the people who wrote them. Quran gives clear wordings, same all over the world. If there is any difference that might be in translations. Even that is not more than few verses as most of these are clear and easy to understand.

When I say that you need to have unbiased Justice system before I said anything in the favour of capital punishment. However if we suppose that the system is just and same for every one from top to bottom then people will not have to kill for revenge and they will rely on the system without a doubt. Self defence and the other possibilities of course should be looked at in the court of law too. Otherwise anyone can say after killing that I did this in self defence.

[Robb Phoenix]

Though I am a Christian I follow my heart not the Bible. The Quran though clear has some major faults in terms of Justice.

Here are some cases and verdicts given by Shariah judges in Arabia:
CASE 1: School boy(below 10) kills another in a tribal feud.(idea given by father).
CASE 2: Woman kills a man who tried to rape her.(many cases occur like this).
VERDICT: Wait till the person is 18 and chop his/her head unless the victims family agrees to take compensation.
Case 3: Man helps an old ailing neighbour for her treatment
CASE 4: 14 year old peddlar girl goes out of normal routine route with a 45 year old man.
VERDICT: Charged with illegal seclusion with the opposite sex (flogging and jail). The girl was additionally renounced by her father.
CASE 5: Man says the word Talak (a word told to initiate divorce in Islam) in his sleep.
VERDICT: Couple ordered to stay apart.
CASE 6: A woman marries a woman from a 'lower' tribe.
VERDICT: Marriage declared invalid. Couple jailed for disobeying court.
CASE 7: Man accidently injures another in the eye rendering him partialy blind.
VERDICT: Doctors ordered to remove the eye of the man who injured the other.
CASE 8: Parents barbaricaly abuse children (burns, multiple fractures,deep scars etc)
VERDICT: no action against parents if child recovers within a month(which they did!)
CASE 9: Step mother(or mother) brutally abuses and kills infant child.
VERDICT: it is up to the parents to decide if they have to receive punisment.
CASE 10: Extra marital relationship.
VERDICT: Couple to be publicaly stoned to death if they were'nt virgins while commiting crime else couple to be flogged an declared as outcasts(non muslims).
CASE 11: Muslim and non Muslim couple married and living happily fo over 10 years.
VERDICT: illegal for muslim to marry non muslim(other than Jews

[Robb Phoenix]

Interesting facts:
4 witnesses must be present to prove rape.
2 female witnesses amount to 1 male witness (as females lack the ability to recount events properly)
Women cannot function as the head of state.(as they lack leadership abilities).
Men can beat their wives to discipline them.
You must not mimick creations of God(nature).While this implies no drawing, photography,statue making etc, not many follow it, I wonder why?
Men must speak with women(except wives,daughters etc), only formally.
You are ready to marry as soon as you attain puberty.
There must be no physical contact(no handshakes!) between men and women.
Women must reveal only their face(not hair) and hands in public.
A women can let a man into her house only with the consent of her husband/male relative.
In Saudi women are not allowed to drive(as it would bring about distraction for men on roads and would bring about contact between men and women in case of breakdown of the woman's car).btw women can travel with a male driver.
Women discouraged from working in male schools as teachers, nurses and doctors (as they must touch men). btw in Saudi women cant work in shops (not even sections selling female lingerie).Physical education discouraged for girls.
Even little girls are included in this female seclusion.eg A football match was cancelled as the crowd included a 10 year old girl.
A man divorced his wife as she gave CPR to an old man despite his insistence to ignore the cries of help by the old man's daughter.(remember no contact between opposite sexes).
High school girls were prevented from exiting their burning school building as they were dressed inappropriately(they were wearing their school uniform but were 'exposing' their hair, hands and legs). Firemen were prevented from entering the building (as they were men).Many died.

[Goodsoulette]

There are so many differences of opinion with regards to the translation of the quran, I believe the islam womens council have translated a version which they believe to be true but because they are women they are given no credence. Sounds to me , again, like people (by people I mean MEN) using to religion to suit them.

[keyplus90]

Rob � You have wasted enough time of the people, now I will tell you about all these things. As many of your cases are just cooked stories by the people who are afraid of rising Islam so I will ignore the one just does not make sense. I would love to have some references where did you get these cases from. And where did you get the idea that the punishments are according to Islamic Shariah.

First 3 cases are just propaganda.
Case 4 � Yes Islam does not allow a female who has grown to puberty with someone who is not family member. She was 14 and might be having a sexual relationship with that 45 years old. That is the reason Saudi Arabia is not on record teenage illegal pregnancies list.
Case 5 � Marriage is a sacred and respected relation. If man says Talak then Islam asks them to sort it with the help of relatives. Unless Talak is given at 3 diff times they can still make it up. Otherwise there is no difference between human and animal. Whenever need sex make it up as many time as possible. Saying in sleep and no contact is just exaggeration on your part so I will ignore that.
Case 6 � completely shows your ignorance about Islam. In Islam woman can not marry woman. Does not make difference which tribe is she from.
Case 7 � Man injured accidentally or purposely that is for the court to decide. As far as taking the eye out is concerned, then that is not in Islam. Again reference please where you got this from.
Case 8 & 9 � Ok forget about Saudi Arabia. How many example can you give me in the UK where you heard a Muslim family found guilty of sexually or physically abusing their children. How many Muslim Paedophiles have you seen so far. Examples please.
Case 10- Extra marital relation. Yes Islam does not allow that. Otherwise there is no respect between wife and husband. Again no difference between human and animal. You only have to see around you to see the consequences of extra marital relation. <