A Baby's Human Rights

[naomi24]

Both Jews and Muslims lop bits off their young male children, not for medical reasons, but because their religions demand it, so a hypothetical question. If a case were brought before the European Court of Human Rights claiming that this practice is in violation of a human being's right to decide what happens to his body, what do you think the outcome would be?

[birdie1971]

There should have been a link to a video in my above post...

[naomi24]

//Didn't God create man in His own image? //

Mmmm... Good question. So is God circumcised, or not?

[Ankou]

there is no god, therefore the question is irrelevant.

[birdie1971]

^^^ I disagree. Whilst I believe that God doesn't exist, the question is very relevant to people who do believe in Him because it begs the further question – if mankind is the image of God then why do certain people think that they can improve upon Gods' design by removing a piece of Gods' creation?

It makes to sense at all for a religious person who believes that God made man in His own image to slice off a piece of that 'image'. It's as ridiculous and barbaric as slicing off a child's earlobes and using the argument that it's okay to do so because no one needs earlobes so what's the problem?

If the removal of an infant/child's foreskin is not a medical necessity then it should be illegal. This religiously sanctioned ritual is nothing less than child abuse and mutilation.

[naomi24]

Birdie, exactly.

[RATTER15]

Like I said earlier, vets are no longer permitted to modify dogs by surgery except on medical grounds, so how can we possibly think it is OK to modify our children by surgery.

[Ankou]

ok ok taking the hypothetical situation as said, then no he aint circumcised. it was merely a covenant commanded upon abraham and his sons of sons of sons of sons etc etc.

is that a more satisfactory answer?

[naomi24]

Don't know Ratter. Why we are expected to respect religion even when it carries out barbaric and unnecessary practices is a mystery to me. :o/

[emmie]

I confess i have never thought of it like that. But who would bring the case, the baby can't obviously, as he grows up perhaps, but would it work, seeing it's done on religious grounds I don't actually agree with it either. But i'm not into any religion, which is just as well.

[Old_Geezer]

I think religious belief tends to trump just about everything in the courts. I guess there must be limits, but time and again laws the rest of us are forced to abide by are set aside for a religious group that claims it's part of their religion to do or not do something. Seems to me that if a law is considered inapplicable for one group the same law should not be applicable to anyone else either.

[naomi24]

Em, Chris has provided information confirming that circumcision does contravene a child's human rights. As to who would bring the case, I can only imagine one of the Human Rights groups.

OG, //I think religious belief tends to trump just about everything in the courts.//

Not any more it seems - and that can only mean progress.

[Ankou]

more here og.

http://www.bma.org.uk...erapeuticcircumcision

[Old_Geezer]

Found a limit did they ? Maybe I'll check out the whole thread and links when I get back home tonight.

[birdie1971]

Ankou:

Apologies - I wasn't having a 'go' at you with my answer. I was addressing a wider concern that some religious people use the 'you don't believe in God so what's it got to do with you?' argument.

[Ankou]

birdie, no offence taken, no apology needed.

but cheers anyway.

[sith123]

ok, about circumcision as i can guess this is one of the "lopping off".

In islam we circumcise children for a number of reasons, of course religious but also we believe health. Because when a baby has the bit (forgot what its called lol) we get rid of it because we believe more dirt can get stuck under there, when you go to the loo its harder to go etc. about the banning it, i am not sure, maybe, maybe not, i mean, it hasnt affected me negatively so i dont see a reason to ban it. :)

[sith123]

also i have never heard of women being circumcised so shed some light on that please.

[naomi24]

Sith, so you were circumcised when you converted to Islam at age 18?

If we are to believe the claim that circumcision is carried out for reasons of hygiene, then the foreskin must be a design fault, but strangely enough, the Koran specifically forbids altering Allah's creation in any way, so it would seem Muslims are treading on rather unsound ground with this practice.

"You will not see any flaw in what the Lord of Mercy creates." (Qur'an 67:3)

"Let there be no change in Allah's creation". (Qur'an 30:30)

Yet more evidence that Islam copied the Jews, who make no such excuses.

As for female circumcision, have a look at this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/42914.stm

Apparently Muhammad said that circumcision is a "law for men and a preservation of honour for women", and statements like that lead to some Muslims believing that women must be horribly and barbarically mutilated in this way.

If you want more graphic explanations, you'll have to google it yourself. I can't. The subject makes me physically sick.

[RATTER15]

Naomi, I have read up on female circumcision over the years and have seen footage of this "operation" it really is the most hideous and disgusting act ever performed on a human, so many young girls are left horrendously disfigured and sometimes even dead.

These people really are sick allowing it to be done to their daughters, and that is putting it mildly!!!

[naomi24]

I know Ratter. I've seen some of it too. Sick, sick, sick!!!!