Can A Non Believer Have An Immortal Soul.

[modeller]

I was speaking to a friend recently who said in a passing comment he didn't believe in "Gods and all that heaven bunkham but did believe in the immortal soul " His words not mine.

The comment came about because his neighbour had had an elaborate funeral despite living on benefits.

I don't get it ! Even if he's right , what's the point. ? Going nowhere, doing nothing , for eternity.


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[goodlife]

A woman in Paris had been born with a debilitating bone disease. Although baptized as a Catholic, she proclaimed herself an atheist. One day she asked a nuns why God had allowed her to be born with such a disability, their answer was: “Because he loves you.” She refused to accept that absurd idea. Also, consider a young person in Finland who was diagnosed as having an incurable muscle disease and was confined to a wheelchair. His mother took him to a Pentecostal who claimed to cure sick people. But there was no miraculous healing. As a result, the young man lost interest in God and became an atheist, so what are you? And you say go blame christians for their teachings if you have a problem with their version of heaven and hell and the soul and all that - not atheists might be true to you , but there again true Christian don’t have problem.

[emmie]

i wish i understood that ^^

[society]

Modeller, I bet your friend believes in reincarnation too.

[LazyGun]

@goodlife - You are, once again, offering cut and paste screeds. Do you actually understand what point you are trying to make with that last post?Because they appear absolutely meaningless to me.

Use your own words, goodlife - not someone elses - You are just being dishonest otherwise.

Are the 144,000 saved souls already saved? If so, what happens to all the other millions of JWs?

[LazyGun]

@em10 Relief! Thought for a moment I might be the only one who could not decipher goodlifes nonsense...

[emmie]

i consider that i have some intelligence, can generally string two sentences together without too much ado, but i didn't understand that at all, and i have read it again to make sure.

[chrisgel]

Goodlife>>>>>>>>>>>>A woman in Paris had been born with a debilitating bone disease. Although baptized as a Catholic, she proclaimed herself an atheist. One day she asked a nuns why God had allowed her to be born with such a disability, their answer was: “Because he loves you.” She refused to accept that absurd idea.
Lets do this one step at a time.
1. What woman (Name, date,disease) - (Citation needed)
2. If she proclaimed herself an atheist what was she doing talking to nuns?

>>>>>Also, consider a young person in Finland who was diagnosed as having an incurable muscle disease and was confined to a wheelchair. His mother took him to a Pentecostal who claimed to cure sick people. But there was no miraculous healing. As a result, the young man lost interest in God and became an atheist

1. Name, date disease.
2. What pentecostal.

You can't just pull stories out of your rectum and expect anybody to take you seriously.
Your childish and nonsensical posts give the impression of a spoilt little child who sticks his fingers in his hears and goes "na na na"
Grow up, get over yourself.
Believe me you are not cut out for proselytising, there are people who are far better at it than you and they can't persuade anyone, so why you should think you can do any better is beyond me. You're not even second rate.

[goodlife]

Firstly with regard to the copy & paste, I cannot credit the authors, as the authors in the WT are always annonymous. You know I take the articles from the Watchtower & Awake so you can always look them up for yourself, you know the website.

The points I was making was that people who don't get satisfactory answers turn away from God and become atheists. True Christians have no problems with the teaching of the Bible, they seek and find. Simple.

[LazyGun]

@goodlife - finally! Thank you for the clarification, and yes, the point you were trying to make is indeed simple - that people failing to find a satisfactory answer from god do indeed turn away from god. I would dispute that such individuals would necessarily decide to adopt an atheist worldview; many will try alternative religions.

Now, why did you not just make that point - one that all can understand- in the first place, rather than a couple of parables from the JW site that were meaningless without the point?

A couple of points. You have been told, numerous times, by several different posters, that your cut and paste approach to posts here is not appreciated - because it is intellectually dishonest, since you fail to attribute your cut and paste, and because it deprives the reader of vital information - namely the source and therefore possible bias.

It is not sufficient to try to rationalise your dishonesty by saying that we all know that you cut and paste from Watchtower - People new to the threads, or those that just pop in occasionally might have no idea. Far more acceptable would be for you to make the point that you wish, in your own words, and then say that you have a parable or some text to illustrate your point, and then just post a link to that piece of text.

And to get back on track. Your point then, your parable and subsequent explanation - seems to be a kind of defence of some comments that you made earlier - which was, in essence, that it is atheists and only atheists that point out the logical inadequacies about the ideas of an immortal soul,or the idea of a resurrected soul.

I still say that is simply untrue. The biggest critics of your brand of religion are other religions - people with a similar belief but significant doctrinal differences. Atheists, I would submit, care little about the detail, only the bigger picture.

But, for clarity, I would like further information, preferably in your words, supported by a link if necessary, to the following questions;

1. Who are the 144,000?
2. Are only 144,000 to be allowed into heaven? If so, why bother attempting to recruit more believers? What happens to all the alleged millions of JWs around the globe?
3. Are they resurrected souls. or are they still to be resurrected?
4. If more than 144,000 are allowed in, what is the quantitative difference between them and the other resurrected souls?
5. Do resurrected souls live for an eternity ?
6. Is Heaven an Earth populated only by the resurrected souls, or somewhere different?

Short, concise answers would be appreciated. No parables or biblical references. Your words, supported by a link to Watchtower if you must...

[coccinelle]

Lazygun: I will let goodlife answer if he does... but the 144,000 are already in heaven and waiting until armaghedon (judgement day) when God will bring back millions of people who have died and give them eternal life on earth where no illness, evil etc will dwell. Those 144,000 will reign over these people from heaven with Jesus Christ now called Archangel Michael.

[LazyGun]

@coccinelle -Ahh, thanks for the clarification.

[goodlife]

As I said I take the articles from the Watchtower & Awake so you can always look them up for yourself, you know the website.

[vetuste_ennemi]

There are A-stream Christians, LG, who are the 144,000 who are going to heaven to judge the world after Armageddon, and there are B-streamers which is all the rest. The Bs will survive Armageddon ("Millions now living will never die" lied "Judge" Rutherford in the 20s or 30s), or will be resurrected to live forever on earth (The New World). These weird doctrines stem from typical WT distortions of scripture. The 144,000 comes from Revelation - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ's reference to Gentile believers ("There are other sheep who are not of this fold") has been twisted to mean the believers who will enjoy eternal life in the flesh rather than the spirit.
A nice touch (Isaiah: "The wolf will lie down with the lamb", "They will not hurt nor harm on all my holy mountain" ) is that apparently animals will become immortal too and all predators will become vegetarians. Not sure what they say about parasites and viruses. Maybe Goodlife will find something quote at us.

[goodlife]

Well is better than what you got,nothing.

[naomi24]

Coccinelle is right. Jesus is the archangel Michael in disguise – and VE is right too – there is a two-tier system, but oddly there are some famous names – Joshua for one - excluded from heaven because they weren't members of the all-important tribes listed in Revelations. Tut! Some thanks!

[vetuste_ennemi]

I think the 144,000 are exclusively Christians, Naomi, the saints of the Pauline epistles. The good guys like Joshua will be coming back here. That's why The judge built a nice house for the patriarchs to live in when they were resurrected in the 1920s. But they weren't, were they? Shame such a beatiful home had to go to waste. Ah, joy! The Khandro book has just arrived.

[naomi24]

VE, indeed. Hardly fair though - considering the effort he went to.

I expect my book tomorrow. :o)

[LazyGun]

Thanks for the informative answers, v_e, naomi and coccinelle.

Were I a prospective candidate for the JWs, the thought that I could only ever be a B-List celebrity would put me right off it, to start with. Discrimination on earth now, followed by discrimination in the hereafter, for eternity? Not for me, thank you . I am way too important to be a mere B-lister ;)

I do not understand why believers just believe this kind of rubbish - why do they never question? why do they never stop, and think "hang on a minute... "

Just shows how little I know about this stuff :) Someone else was claiming the Charles Taze Russell had nothing to do with the JW formation - preached against em, apparently - I thought he was the founding father of the JWs! I will have to look him up on wiki again....

And from the one member of the JW that we know of, what help did I get from goodlife? None.Just a churlish "better than what you got" comment - except that, since you have no proof, nothing is all you have to look forward to as well, goodlife. You have cluttered up your life and irritated many with this credulous mumbo-jumbo that you believe and regurgitate, when you could have being doing something useful with your life.

[LazyGun]

And just so i am clear on this, v_e;

The 144,000 have already been selected ( and resurrected too?) and will live / are living now in heaven, with god. according to JW mythology?

And all the rest of the JWs will be resurrected, but will live in a separate place, ie Earth, minus all the evil? And they get to live for ever and ever also, along with all the newly created herbivores etc?

Do the A-listers and god ever visit from heaven? Mingle with the hoi-polloi?