What's Needed To Believe ?

[modeller]

I was asked by a theist what would be needed to cause me to:

1. Believe in God .
2. Believe in the bible.

I said 1. A number of verifiable miracles, would make me think about it.
2. Nothing would make me believe in fairy tales.

I then said I'll make it easy for you, just repeat two claimed 'miracles already carried out by Jesus. Make the blind see and the lame walk. If the son can do it then it would be even easier for the father.

So lets start with two people we all know .
Give David Blunket sight and Steven Hawkins mobility.
Do that and you might not have so many empty churches.

What would our non believering ABers need, to at least reconsider , their non belief .

[Old_Geezer]

I think you ask for that which, even if a diety existed, clearly is not willing to do. For whatever reason, absolute proof seems to be deemed unhelpful to whatever the overall goal is. That's why you are asked to have faith.

I think that is likely to be the same sticking point no matter what anyone demands a God must do to help them believe.

[jomifl]

Faith is needed to believe, thank god I don't have any, otherwise I wouldn't take his name in vain.

[naomi24]

1. Nothing would convince me to believe that the God of the Bible/Koran is the omnipotent creator of the universe. That character's reputation precedes him - and he clearly wasn't.

2. I don't believe the bible is full of fairy tales. I think it contains a lot of truth, albeit misinterpreted and misrepresented by religion - so no, I would never take the bible as a record of the genuine creator - if such a thing exists.

Conclusion: Nothing I can think of would make me believe in either.

[Octavius]

If a surgeon gave sight and the ability to walk again, would that constitute a miracle then? Or are you saying it should 'just happen'?

If it "just happened" then would you not just say its a fluke of nature or some inner body healing correctivenes (can't think of any word for that)?

Are you expecting bolts of lightning from a giant hand in the clouds?

[pixie373]

If there was enough evidence, it would be Science, not religion, so nothing would make me religious.

[modeller]

Octavius To be a Miracle it must quickly 'just happen' as in the bible with out man's major intervention. A prayer or something minor as with Jesus rubbing some wet clay onto the eyes .

Yes if it only happened once I would certainly say it might be a fluke. That would be a logical assumption because these things do happen in nature.

I don't need a grandiose gesture from the sky . A simple answer to a simple prayer . Is that too much to ask your great powerful creator.

[Octavius]

So you are actually looking for evidence of faith healing of physical ailments and if that hapened you'd call it a miracle and become a believer.

Why can't you just be happy being a non-believer?

[jim360]

I'd have thought that God's actually appearing would be enough to convince anyone.

[LazyGun]

For the stars to be rearranged to spell out "Hello, I am God - How are all you good folks doing?"

For devout amputees to regrow missing limbs.

These I would accept as evidence of something outside of our current understanding. So probably down from defcon 7 on the atheism scale to defcon 6... :)

[jim360]

Yes, I think that basically captures it, LG.

1. Take something that is completely impossible.
2. Do it.

[naomi24]

//I'd have thought that God's actually appearing would be enough to convince anyone. //

How would you know it's God?

[modeller]

Naomi //Conclusion: Nothing I can think of would make me believe in either//
How about if , say the 10 things you desired most in the world were granted immediately following your prayers would you still deny the possibilty that some outside agency might be involved. ?

I'm just wondering if there is a red line somewhere beyond which you might give it a thought. .

[jim360]

I'll tell you how I'd know after it happens.

[naomi24]

modeller, this is where the confusion lies with my posts. Although I doubt very much that an outside agency exists, I've never denied the possibility. I do however, have a major problem with 'God' - he of the Abrahamic faiths - because he wasn't who he is reputed to be - and his biography, the bible, proves that. (As a serious work for study in this regard, I discount the Koran completely).

Jim, that's no answer.

[modeller]

Octavius. //So you are actually looking for evidence of faith healing of physical ailments and if that hapened you'd call it a miracle and become a believer.//
I'm a scientist and I constantly seek answers . If a faith healer or any witch doctor achieved a success I would want to investigate further. That's what scientists do.

//So you are actually looking for evidence of faith healing of physical ailments and if that happened you'd call it a miracle and become a believer.//

Twisting my words won't lessen your blindness.

[chrisgel]

Which god are we talking about? Surely there would be immediate arguments leading to wars and bloodshed over whose god it was.

[jim360]

If it's a serious question, then on his appearance God would have to overturn every reason that I have to not believe that it was actually him. I'm not going to give too much thought to how he might achieve this, though.

If it's the Christian God we're talking about, he'd also have to rewrite History and start from the beginning and do it properly this time. Presumably even the fact that we are having this conversation rules that one out!

A creator in general is much easier. If that person built the Universe he should be able to change it. So a message in the stars might make me sit up and take notice.

[naomi24]

Chris, the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are one and the same - but if we were talking about Zeus, or Thor, for example, I think we would be wise to make that clear. Far be it from an atheist to mislead anyone. ;o)

[naomi24]

*is one and the same. :o/

[modeller]

I agree Naomi the sadistic God of the bible doesn't exist. All the evil in the people of the book ,Jews , Christians and Muslims, was carried out by man.
No God was involved.