Crosswords2 mins ago
What's Needed To Believe ?
79 Answers
I was asked by a theist what would be needed to cause me to:
1. Believe in God .
2. Believe in the bible.
I said 1. A number of verifiable miracles, would make me think about it.
2. Nothing would make me believe in fairy tales.
I then said I'll make it easy for you, just repeat two claimed 'miracles already carried out by Jesus. Make the blind see and the lame walk. If the son can do it then it would be even easier for the father.
So lets start with two people we all know .
Give David Blunket sight and Steven Hawkins mobility.
Do that and you might not have so many empty churches.
What would our non believering ABers need, to at least reconsider , their non belief .
1. Believe in God .
2. Believe in the bible.
I said 1. A number of verifiable miracles, would make me think about it.
2. Nothing would make me believe in fairy tales.
I then said I'll make it easy for you, just repeat two claimed 'miracles already carried out by Jesus. Make the blind see and the lame walk. If the son can do it then it would be even easier for the father.
So lets start with two people we all know .
Give David Blunket sight and Steven Hawkins mobility.
Do that and you might not have so many empty churches.
What would our non believering ABers need, to at least reconsider , their non belief .
Answers
Modeller...
09:44 Fri 26th Jul 2013
I once said to Naomi that characteristics she demanded from someone to be believed as God, suited more to someone called “my hero” in that comedy programme. Because he used to appear whenever a single person was in trouble. But by the sound of this question and responses from few well established atheists, I have come to the conclusion that problem is a little bit serious. Because few have very simply declared that there is nothing ever that would change their mind. So nothing we can do about these ones so let’s forget about them. Then there are few who want God to appear himself in front of their eyes. Just imagine God running around the world to convince ever single person, I wouldn’t want that sort of god personally anyway. And then there are few who want miracle.
First of all no one can say that Jesus (pbuh) did not cure blinds etc. I am a Muslim but I believe that he did because Quran says so. The only difference is that in Bible, Christians believe that he did it because he was God or at least Son of God. As Muslims we believe that he was a prophet and God gave him the ability to do that as God gives different abilities to different people. No if I were to ask my next door neighbour that you run like Usane Bolt and only then I would believe in God then he may say that you ask Usane bolt to find what is wrong with a comby boiler and then he would run like him. And obviously few have already sad that even he did manage to run like Usane bolt still thay would not believe in God so it is a win, win situation. However I can’t ask others to believe in Quran or even Bible for this. But can anyone prove that it did not happen at that time. I don’t think so as either way it cannot be proven. In Quran there are same kind of demands made by people at that time to the prophets and few by the prophets themselves to God. Quran tells me that how many different demands people of Moses (pbuh) made before they could believe in Moses (or his God). They were given food from the heavens and still they demanded different kind of food. So they were not happy with the takeaway delivered but wanted variety as well. Moses (pbuh) himself requested God if he could see him only to be told that it would not be possible for human eyes to see God and therefore God just spoke to him. Even at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) people demanded that how could that believe that he was a prophet as he used to eat same food, and walk in the same street as they did. In other words they wanted an angel but God said that their eyes would not be able cope with the light an angel posses.
Finally, miracles happened when prophets were around and many still did not believe in them. Now there are no more prophets and therefore no more THOSE kind of miracles. And there is no guarantee if God himself will come and all of the people will believe in him. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU CALL FREE WILL.
First of all no one can say that Jesus (pbuh) did not cure blinds etc. I am a Muslim but I believe that he did because Quran says so. The only difference is that in Bible, Christians believe that he did it because he was God or at least Son of God. As Muslims we believe that he was a prophet and God gave him the ability to do that as God gives different abilities to different people. No if I were to ask my next door neighbour that you run like Usane Bolt and only then I would believe in God then he may say that you ask Usane bolt to find what is wrong with a comby boiler and then he would run like him. And obviously few have already sad that even he did manage to run like Usane bolt still thay would not believe in God so it is a win, win situation. However I can’t ask others to believe in Quran or even Bible for this. But can anyone prove that it did not happen at that time. I don’t think so as either way it cannot be proven. In Quran there are same kind of demands made by people at that time to the prophets and few by the prophets themselves to God. Quran tells me that how many different demands people of Moses (pbuh) made before they could believe in Moses (or his God). They were given food from the heavens and still they demanded different kind of food. So they were not happy with the takeaway delivered but wanted variety as well. Moses (pbuh) himself requested God if he could see him only to be told that it would not be possible for human eyes to see God and therefore God just spoke to him. Even at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) people demanded that how could that believe that he was a prophet as he used to eat same food, and walk in the same street as they did. In other words they wanted an angel but God said that their eyes would not be able cope with the light an angel posses.
Finally, miracles happened when prophets were around and many still did not believe in them. Now there are no more prophets and therefore no more THOSE kind of miracles. And there is no guarantee if God himself will come and all of the people will believe in him. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU CALL FREE WILL.
The bible is merely a book so being asked to believe in that is the same as believing in the lord of the rings. If the question is to believe in the god from the bible then that's merely a character, so in the real world unbelievable. As for talk of miracles, does returning eyesight (which does happen?) or regrowing limbs (some animal can do that can't they?) really constitute a miracle, aren't things like that a little too individualistic and not of particular importance on a global scale? Could you argue that the rain is a miracle, plants providing oxygen for us to breathe? I personally don't consider these acts of god but they do have an element of the miraculous about them
Keyplus, //I once said to Naomi that characteristics she demanded from someone to be believed as God, ....//
I don't think I've ever demanded 'characteristics' for the simple reason that 'characteristics' would not prove to me that the entity in question is indeed God. Remind me. Have you got a link?
I don't think I've ever demanded 'characteristics' for the simple reason that 'characteristics' would not prove to me that the entity in question is indeed God. Remind me. Have you got a link?
@ ck1
"As for talk of miracles, does returning eyesight (which does happen?) or regrowing limbs (some animal can do that can't they?) really constitute a miracle, aren't things like that a little too individualistic and not of particular importance on a global scale? Could you argue that the rain is a miracle, plants providing oxygen for us to breathe? I personally don't consider these acts of god but they do have an element of the miraculous about them"
I would fundamentally disagree, although it might depend a little on your definition of "miracle" or miraculous".
A fairly common dictionary definition would be
"A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.
A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment."
I do not think rain falls into that category,nor plants expiring oxygen. Marvellous, yes. Amazing, certainly. Nature can be awesome and awe-inducing, no question.
Nor would I describe returning eyesight as "miraculous"
However - Show me a human amputee that grows back their limb overnight, following prayer.Show me someone who has lost an eye regrowing a functioning eye. That would be something that fits the definition.
I could probably, with a bit of imagination, do a connect the dots using the stars in the heavens to spell out a phrase like "hello, how are you doing" - What would be a miracle is if the location of the stars was rearranged overnight to spell out the message in glorious technicolour.... :)
Gene therapy offers some exciting opportunities and medicine is advancing all the time. From the viewpoint of someone living just a few decades ago, it might be tempting to describe it as miraculous.
"As for talk of miracles, does returning eyesight (which does happen?) or regrowing limbs (some animal can do that can't they?) really constitute a miracle, aren't things like that a little too individualistic and not of particular importance on a global scale? Could you argue that the rain is a miracle, plants providing oxygen for us to breathe? I personally don't consider these acts of god but they do have an element of the miraculous about them"
I would fundamentally disagree, although it might depend a little on your definition of "miracle" or miraculous".
A fairly common dictionary definition would be
"A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.
A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment."
I do not think rain falls into that category,nor plants expiring oxygen. Marvellous, yes. Amazing, certainly. Nature can be awesome and awe-inducing, no question.
Nor would I describe returning eyesight as "miraculous"
However - Show me a human amputee that grows back their limb overnight, following prayer.Show me someone who has lost an eye regrowing a functioning eye. That would be something that fits the definition.
I could probably, with a bit of imagination, do a connect the dots using the stars in the heavens to spell out a phrase like "hello, how are you doing" - What would be a miracle is if the location of the stars was rearranged overnight to spell out the message in glorious technicolour.... :)
Gene therapy offers some exciting opportunities and medicine is advancing all the time. From the viewpoint of someone living just a few decades ago, it might be tempting to describe it as miraculous.
I suppose technically, my answer to "what is needed to cause you to believe?" is that nothing would make me believe there is a god. If evidence emerged such that the existence of God was overwhelmingly the most likely outcome, then I would know, as much as I know anything else now, that there was a god. But I wouldn't "believe" it.
LG // Nor would I describe returning eyesight as "miraculous //
#
No ! but its not returning . He never had usable eyes to start with . He was born blind . He requires to grow them.
As you say:
//Show me someone who has lost an eye regrowing a functioning eye. That would be something that fits the definition.//
#
No ! but its not returning . He never had usable eyes to start with . He was born blind . He requires to grow them.
As you say:
//Show me someone who has lost an eye regrowing a functioning eye. That would be something that fits the definition.//
@lazygun, does it come down to definitions? After how many people had regrown limbs does that stop being regarded as a miracle? I'm sure at some point in history, the first people to witness rainfall would have considered that miraculous, is it not these events that initially caused people to believe in gods and perform rituals to please them hoping rain would follow, allowing food to grow etc?
With regards to regrowing limbs, why is the praying part important? With the progress of stem cell research I expect it wont be too far in the future that an injection will result in the growth of a new eye, one could argue that our ability to achieve these results is part of the miraculous process, just happens a little slower than we would like to see?
With regards to regrowing limbs, why is the praying part important? With the progress of stem cell research I expect it wont be too far in the future that an injection will result in the growth of a new eye, one could argue that our ability to achieve these results is part of the miraculous process, just happens a little slower than we would like to see?
keyplus // However I can’t ask others to believe in Quran or even Bible for this. But can anyone prove that it did not happen at that time //
I agree ! Now you prove it did ! My disbelief is based on 2000 years of history and plain logic. Your's in the blind belief of unproven scribbles on scraps of parchment cobbled together many decades and centuries after the supposed events.
The translation of the Koran from the Arabic was so chaotic they couldn't
agree and you ended up with three versions. It then had to be done all over again in the 1920s and you still couldn't agree so you still have two disputed versions. These are the books you blindly follow and expect others to believe, when you cant even agree amongst yourselves.
You have never agreed since the days of the prophets. Do I have to remind you about the battle of Karbalah ? And the numerous battles within the faith right up to the present day.
I agree ! Now you prove it did ! My disbelief is based on 2000 years of history and plain logic. Your's in the blind belief of unproven scribbles on scraps of parchment cobbled together many decades and centuries after the supposed events.
The translation of the Koran from the Arabic was so chaotic they couldn't
agree and you ended up with three versions. It then had to be done all over again in the 1920s and you still couldn't agree so you still have two disputed versions. These are the books you blindly follow and expect others to believe, when you cant even agree amongst yourselves.
You have never agreed since the days of the prophets. Do I have to remind you about the battle of Karbalah ? And the numerous battles within the faith right up to the present day.
Octavius If those two men are suddenly cured this week after a prayer or laying on of hands or any other mumbo jumbo of your choice . I would believe it was a miracle and that there is some, at present undetectable power beyond our understanding. You can give that power any name you like. I am being very reasonable . I'm not asking your God for a great global event , just give two unfortunate fellow human beings a normal life.
Is that asking too much of a God that created the universe and those two men.
Is that asking too much of a God that created the universe and those two men.
@ ck1 Of course it comes down to definitions!
For the purposes of the discussion here, when people are talking about verifiable miracles, or something miraculous occuring, we are talking about something inexplicable by current or even future scientific and natural laws.
Yes, stem cell research, cloning, investigations into DNA might very well form the basis of new additive technology that allows us to regrow limbs, although most definitely not anytime soon ( soon being arbitrarily defined by me as being somewhere between tomorrow and probably 50 years or so) - but if that happens, it will not be a miracle or a miraculous process, since it will be explicable by science and will be conforming to principles that do not violate the laws of nature.
And perhaps the very first tribesmen or whatever did think rain a miracle when they first saw it - but since then our knowledge and understanding of the world has progressed - we now understand the principles that govern rain - so its hardly miraculous, is it?
What would be miraculous is if an amputee - or, lets say a thalidomide baby - suddenly, overnight, regrew their missing limbs with or without prayer - although the reason why prayer was included should be obvious. This is a discussion about verifiable miracles as being a sign from a divine being - one who interacts with humanity via prayer .
I would certainly classify that as a miracle, whether it happened just once or thousands of times, because it would violate a number of natural laws.
For the purposes of the discussion here, when people are talking about verifiable miracles, or something miraculous occuring, we are talking about something inexplicable by current or even future scientific and natural laws.
Yes, stem cell research, cloning, investigations into DNA might very well form the basis of new additive technology that allows us to regrow limbs, although most definitely not anytime soon ( soon being arbitrarily defined by me as being somewhere between tomorrow and probably 50 years or so) - but if that happens, it will not be a miracle or a miraculous process, since it will be explicable by science and will be conforming to principles that do not violate the laws of nature.
And perhaps the very first tribesmen or whatever did think rain a miracle when they first saw it - but since then our knowledge and understanding of the world has progressed - we now understand the principles that govern rain - so its hardly miraculous, is it?
What would be miraculous is if an amputee - or, lets say a thalidomide baby - suddenly, overnight, regrew their missing limbs with or without prayer - although the reason why prayer was included should be obvious. This is a discussion about verifiable miracles as being a sign from a divine being - one who interacts with humanity via prayer .
I would certainly classify that as a miracle, whether it happened just once or thousands of times, because it would violate a number of natural laws.
OK let's put our head on line. You find me one Quran that is different from the other then I will become atheist and join your party, or otherwise you do the same. Can you take this challenge? Because it is very easy to follow few anti Islamic websites and copy and paste. But let's see if you can prove your words.
Keyplus - “... You find me one Quran that is different from the other then I will become atheist and join your party...”
Our "party"... Oh dear.
Regardless...
No you won't. It's just more lies from you.
Even though any one of us (religious or otherwise) can prove that there are different Korans (due to inaccuracies in translation, typographical errors, etc.) you will always assert that the different Korans are in fact one and the same and that the errors are man-made and therefore don't count. I know how your twisted mind works Keyplus.
The fact is, your beliefs are based on provable falsehoods that you don't have the courage to confront. You're afraid of the truth because you've got such a big emotional investment in the lie and you're too immature to deal with it.
Our "party"... Oh dear.
Regardless...
No you won't. It's just more lies from you.
Even though any one of us (religious or otherwise) can prove that there are different Korans (due to inaccuracies in translation, typographical errors, etc.) you will always assert that the different Korans are in fact one and the same and that the errors are man-made and therefore don't count. I know how your twisted mind works Keyplus.
The fact is, your beliefs are based on provable falsehoods that you don't have the courage to confront. You're afraid of the truth because you've got such a big emotional investment in the lie and you're too immature to deal with it.
Keyplus, what party?
This is interesting.
http://
This is interesting.
http://
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
 |