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What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?
375 Answers
With no explanation, Goodlife is constantly telling the ‘poor’ atheists here that they have nothing – and today Khandro said exactly the same. I'm curious. Just what is it that these chaps think they have that the rest of us lack?
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//What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?//
This question has been answered several times in this thread alone - "Faith".
What the faithful have invariably failed to explain is what value faith holds that those without are lacking, other than perhaps posing as the last bastion of snake oil salesmen.
Faith is offered as an antidote to reason when faith is in fact that which poisons it. The faithful offer us salvation from ourselves, from the responsibility to think rationally, systematically with reason as our guide, salvation from that which distinguishes us from all other animals and defines us as a unique species, salvation from the need to choose to be human, to act rationally and to embrace our humanity. Reason alone is our sole means of determining what is moral and for differentiating that which is in our mutual rational self-interest from the morally reprehensible. Faith, blind belief, makes all such distinctions impossible, as is demonstrated by the attested actions of the faithful's alleged creator.
Faith is not a means of retaining hope but rather a resignation to helplessness, an attempt to reach beyond ourselves, beyond our understanding of reality for the hope the faithful have abandoned, the hope that reason will prevail.
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This question has been answered several times in this thread alone - "Faith".
What the faithful have invariably failed to explain is what value faith holds that those without are lacking, other than perhaps posing as the last bastion of snake oil salesmen.
Faith is offered as an antidote to reason when faith is in fact that which poisons it. The faithful offer us salvation from ourselves, from the responsibility to think rationally, systematically with reason as our guide, salvation from that which distinguishes us from all other animals and defines us as a unique species, salvation from the need to choose to be human, to act rationally and to embrace our humanity. Reason alone is our sole means of determining what is moral and for differentiating that which is in our mutual rational self-interest from the morally reprehensible. Faith, blind belief, makes all such distinctions impossible, as is demonstrated by the attested actions of the faithful's alleged creator.
Faith is not a means of retaining hope but rather a resignation to helplessness, an attempt to reach beyond ourselves, beyond our understanding of reality for the hope the faithful have abandoned, the hope that reason will prevail.
http://
Clanad and goodlife, of course babies are born without believing in God. Do you think it's a complete coincidence that Christians have many beliefs in common. Why are some people Muslims, then, or any other religion? Clearly, it is not an innate knowledge, religion is taught by other people. You believe it or you don't.
The faithful have many of their rules of conduct laid down for them over 1000 years ago in commandments. Similarly their attitude to their purported creator - obligatory worship in most cases. How sad to have one's behaviour to others (eventually one's moral code) mainly
pre-determined before birth. However the "reward" is everlasting life - sorry, no choices!
In contrast the atheist has to evolve his/her own mode of conduct and morality. It's a big ask of we mere "intelligent" animals but the choices are there without external duress. Also, for the atheist there are no "rewards" to aim for but at least the freedom from the threat of everlasting life (everlasting boredom).
So pity the thinking agnostic who wanders back and forth in a dilemma between fear and relief or whatever.
Whichever "side" of the argument one lies, as instinctive animals, we all fail to reach our ideals at times, often too many times of course - notably in being judgemental, greedy selfish etc.
All of the above refers to those who are basically well meaning and ignores those maniacal extremists who abuse their religion or atheism to achieve their murderous ends.
I am an atheist by logic and absence of any evidence to the contrary.
But most of my moral code is almost certainly rooted in many of the philososopers' writings of the New Testament (approx. 300 AD Greek).
Unfortunately it's a one way-street: we atheists cannot and, in my case have no desire, to disabuse good-living, god-fearing believers of their faith. In return, please don't preach to me or pity me.
Respectfully,
SIQ.
pre-determined before birth. However the "reward" is everlasting life - sorry, no choices!
In contrast the atheist has to evolve his/her own mode of conduct and morality. It's a big ask of we mere "intelligent" animals but the choices are there without external duress. Also, for the atheist there are no "rewards" to aim for but at least the freedom from the threat of everlasting life (everlasting boredom).
So pity the thinking agnostic who wanders back and forth in a dilemma between fear and relief or whatever.
Whichever "side" of the argument one lies, as instinctive animals, we all fail to reach our ideals at times, often too many times of course - notably in being judgemental, greedy selfish etc.
All of the above refers to those who are basically well meaning and ignores those maniacal extremists who abuse their religion or atheism to achieve their murderous ends.
I am an atheist by logic and absence of any evidence to the contrary.
But most of my moral code is almost certainly rooted in many of the philososopers' writings of the New Testament (approx. 300 AD Greek).
Unfortunately it's a one way-street: we atheists cannot and, in my case have no desire, to disabuse good-living, god-fearing believers of their faith. In return, please don't preach to me or pity me.
Respectfully,
SIQ.
Khandro - I didn't turn my back on the Catholic church, I stopped believing in God so it wouldn't have mattered what religion I was.
Grass...I suppose you could consider me as someone who simply didn't know any different and never questioned it. I was never overly religious anyway and was never God fearing. I also managed to escape the Catholic guilt.
Grass...I suppose you could consider me as someone who simply didn't know any different and never questioned it. I was never overly religious anyway and was never God fearing. I also managed to escape the Catholic guilt.
"Pixie, all I'm asking is that you provide some proof for your statement "...of course babies are born without believing in God..." How do you know that to be true? Your believing it is not sufficient, is it?"
Show me a whole bunch of babies who are born reciting the catechism, or the Lords Prayer, or, without any education in religion spontaneously speak of their knowledge of god and you might have a point in asking the question. Otherwise, it is just a silly question.
Show me a whole bunch of babies who are born reciting the catechism, or the Lords Prayer, or, without any education in religion spontaneously speak of their knowledge of god and you might have a point in asking the question. Otherwise, it is just a silly question.
As i said, clanad, if it was innate, why are there different religions? Why do Christians have beliefs "in common". A baby can't know that until he/she's been taught it by someone else. In a country that's mainly Muslim, for instance, are there any cases of a child just independently being a Christian, without being told about it by somebody else?
Cannedgranny, thank you. You’re very kind – you too Pixie - but I think any accolade should really go to Goodlife and Khandro for prompting this question – which neither have yet managed to answer. ;o)
Clanad, considering the plethora of religions that exist in the world that do not involve the God of Abraham, the evidence that babies are not born with an innate belief in that particular God is overwhelming.
Clanad, considering the plethora of religions that exist in the world that do not involve the God of Abraham, the evidence that babies are not born with an innate belief in that particular God is overwhelming.
It seems very odd to me that pixie should be challenged on her contention that babies are born without any sense of theism.
This adds a new incredulous layer to the poor biblical theist case, indeed demeans that case further.
Pixie's point is a perfect example of a self-evident truth.
Witnesses for the defence: every parent of every child.
To believe you need to explore, learn and refine that learning. That's what babies do until adults indoctrinate, not basic knowledge, but ill-conceived beliefs.
By innate, I presume we mean instinct. I know of no innate conceptualisation like theism or anything at such a complex level.
Instinct does seem, rarely to our knowledge, to be genetically inherited as a basic and a simple survival technique e.g. a duckling following a football as it's "mother" if it seees only that first. It's a gamble but better than starvng or waiting to be fostered.
Desperate try but better not to have tried at all, dear theists.
SIQ.
This adds a new incredulous layer to the poor biblical theist case, indeed demeans that case further.
Pixie's point is a perfect example of a self-evident truth.
Witnesses for the defence: every parent of every child.
To believe you need to explore, learn and refine that learning. That's what babies do until adults indoctrinate, not basic knowledge, but ill-conceived beliefs.
By innate, I presume we mean instinct. I know of no innate conceptualisation like theism or anything at such a complex level.
Instinct does seem, rarely to our knowledge, to be genetically inherited as a basic and a simple survival technique e.g. a duckling following a football as it's "mother" if it seees only that first. It's a gamble but better than starvng or waiting to be fostered.
Desperate try but better not to have tried at all, dear theists.
SIQ.
Nice back slap there solvitquick!
At any rate, you offer no proof of your contention, only a deeply held belief, no? You cannot prove that the tendency toward spiritual belief (whatever the flavor du jour) isn't innate in humans. You're the only one (along with naomi and solveitquick) to infer we were talking about babies and Christianity … I mentioned only that here's no evidence that babies aren't born without a tendency toward the spiritual. Can you describe a test to prove your contention?
Again, no one has addressed my question about intellectually functioning individuals coming to belief in adulthood...
At any rate, you offer no proof of your contention, only a deeply held belief, no? You cannot prove that the tendency toward spiritual belief (whatever the flavor du jour) isn't innate in humans. You're the only one (along with naomi and solveitquick) to infer we were talking about babies and Christianity … I mentioned only that here's no evidence that babies aren't born without a tendency toward the spiritual. Can you describe a test to prove your contention?
Again, no one has addressed my question about intellectually functioning individuals coming to belief in adulthood...
"At the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse, I wonder how a-theists explain the numerous (in my circle of acquaintances, nearly all) adults come to the conclusion of the truth of Scripture after being either a-theists or agnostics for many years? I've friends that are highly educated (as well as most who are divided among the less educated) who unabashedly declare their belief… can't all of them been brainwashed, could they?"
Well I would question that description of the world, to start with.In your circle of acquaintances ( how many acquaintances does your average human adult have? less than 10? 50? 100?, more?), nearly all adults you know have converted to scripture?
I am sceptical of that situation, for starters. How many? How long have you known them for? How did you know they were atheist or agnostic before they converted? Not buying it Clanad.
But, quite apart from that - people can and do as adults convince themselves of anything and go on to believe it quite sincerely - just think of the numerous proponents of various conspiracy theories, for instance. I could imagine some adults convincing themselves that religion holds the answer to lifes mysteries for them - and I do not have a problem with that.
If an adult wishes to follow a religion, having made up their own mind - fine and dandy, providing they then do not start whining that they are unable to accept gay marriage because it contradicts their religion, or that they should be allowed to have statues placed on government property but other cults cannot, or that their should be public prayer before a public meeting etc. In other words, that their religious rights and beliefs do not take precedence over human rights or national secular values.
But the critical thing, how we know that religiosity is largely an imprinted, learned thing, is the simple statistic that the vast majority of children of practising christians grow up christian (not muslim,or buddhist, or atheist); the vast majority of children of practising muslims grow up muslim - not RC, not Protestant, not Jainism or whatever.
And we know that much of that religious belief is therefore imprinted upon people at an early age, and that such learning tends to stick through to adulthood.This is self-evident and uncontroversial - It is a maxim attributed to Jesuits after all, that "Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man."
So for me, I would far rather that religion played no part at all in formal education until kids are able to make considered opinions of their own - say 16 or so.
Well I would question that description of the world, to start with.In your circle of acquaintances ( how many acquaintances does your average human adult have? less than 10? 50? 100?, more?), nearly all adults you know have converted to scripture?
I am sceptical of that situation, for starters. How many? How long have you known them for? How did you know they were atheist or agnostic before they converted? Not buying it Clanad.
But, quite apart from that - people can and do as adults convince themselves of anything and go on to believe it quite sincerely - just think of the numerous proponents of various conspiracy theories, for instance. I could imagine some adults convincing themselves that religion holds the answer to lifes mysteries for them - and I do not have a problem with that.
If an adult wishes to follow a religion, having made up their own mind - fine and dandy, providing they then do not start whining that they are unable to accept gay marriage because it contradicts their religion, or that they should be allowed to have statues placed on government property but other cults cannot, or that their should be public prayer before a public meeting etc. In other words, that their religious rights and beliefs do not take precedence over human rights or national secular values.
But the critical thing, how we know that religiosity is largely an imprinted, learned thing, is the simple statistic that the vast majority of children of practising christians grow up christian (not muslim,or buddhist, or atheist); the vast majority of children of practising muslims grow up muslim - not RC, not Protestant, not Jainism or whatever.
And we know that much of that religious belief is therefore imprinted upon people at an early age, and that such learning tends to stick through to adulthood.This is self-evident and uncontroversial - It is a maxim attributed to Jesuits after all, that "Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man."
So for me, I would far rather that religion played no part at all in formal education until kids are able to make considered opinions of their own - say 16 or so.
We are basically herd animals. Most humans have an instinct to belong to a group. Those who don't have it often turn out to be sociopaths.
Religion uses this part of our nature to offer membership to their group. The price you pay is conformity to the dictates of their oligarchy.
Meanwhile they preach to all that you are a sinner and only by joining their group can you ever really be worthy. As a bonus they throw in eternal life for compliance in one's mortal existence.
Religion uses this part of our nature to offer membership to their group. The price you pay is conformity to the dictates of their oligarchy.
Meanwhile they preach to all that you are a sinner and only by joining their group can you ever really be worthy. As a bonus they throw in eternal life for compliance in one's mortal existence.
Clanad, you asked //At the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse, I wonder how a-theists explain the numerous (in my circle of acquaintances, nearly all) adults come to the conclusion of the truth of Scripture after being either a-theists or agnostics for many years?// …….You're the only one (along with naomi and solveitquick) to infer we were talking about babies and Christianity …//
You’re talking about ‘Scripture’ and inferring that babies are somehow born with an instinctive knowledge of that, which is why nearly all your adult acquaintances have eventually “come to the conclusion of the truth of Scripture”. If ‘Scripture’ doesn’t imply Christianity, or at least writings involving the Abrahamic God, ie those of Islam or Judaism, perhaps you’ll be good enough to tell me what scripture you’re referring to.
//Again, no one has addressed my question about intellectually functioning individuals coming to belief in adulthood...//
I did.
//Clanad, hoping for a ‘get out of death’ card. That’s your ultimate aim, isn’t it? If that wasn’t perceived to be on offer, there would be no reason whatsoever to abandon human dignity and decent human principles in favour of subservience to the appallingly unjust mentality of that particular God.//
You’re talking about ‘Scripture’ and inferring that babies are somehow born with an instinctive knowledge of that, which is why nearly all your adult acquaintances have eventually “come to the conclusion of the truth of Scripture”. If ‘Scripture’ doesn’t imply Christianity, or at least writings involving the Abrahamic God, ie those of Islam or Judaism, perhaps you’ll be good enough to tell me what scripture you’re referring to.
//Again, no one has addressed my question about intellectually functioning individuals coming to belief in adulthood...//
I did.
//Clanad, hoping for a ‘get out of death’ card. That’s your ultimate aim, isn’t it? If that wasn’t perceived to be on offer, there would be no reason whatsoever to abandon human dignity and decent human principles in favour of subservience to the appallingly unjust mentality of that particular God.//
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