What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?

[naomi24]

With no explanation, Goodlife is constantly telling the ‘poor’ atheists here that they have nothing – and today Khandro said exactly the same. I'm curious. Just what is it that these chaps think they have that the rest of us lack?

[naomi24]

Grasscarp, If you have an opinion that you believe is valid, why do you need the sanction of others in order to express it? The chance of encountering opposition is one we all take when we post here. And you haven’t been dismissed – several people have responded to your posts and every point you’ve raised has been answered.

Although I can’t speak for anyone else, my reasons for posting in this section have been explained to you many times – and hinted at again in my post here to Khandro at 09:50. In short, I care about the negative impact that religion has upon the vulnerable, the gullible, and those who, for whatever reason, are unable to speak for themselves, and if posting here makes even the smallest difference to that, then in my opinion it’s a worthwhile thing to do.

[grasscarp]

Ludwig, I dont think that is desirable.
Naomi if what you addressed directly to me earlier today .... Grasscarp, your patent inability to offer anything pertinent to any discussion - is not a dismissal I dont know what is.
I cannot see how this thread will make any difference to the vulnerable, gullible or those unable to speak for themselves. Thanks anyway for this insight in what you are trying to achieve.

[ummmm]

Khandro....I'm a catholic, I believed what I was taught to believe and never really questioned it.

I started having doubts when my mum, who was protestant, became a born again Christian..

Reading things on here made me realise what a load of nonsense it all sounded...

[naomi24]

Grasscarp, that wasn’t a dismissal. I was simply stating a fact. You haven’t added anything pertinent to the discussion. You’ve not even attempted to address the original question. Such is your input into this section that no one, as far as I’m aware, knows what you believe – but they can be in no doubt at all that you’re opposed to criticism of religion and to those who dare to criticise it.

//I cannot see how this thread will make any difference to the vulnerable, gullible or those unable to speak for themselves.//

Can’t speak for individual threads, but see Ummmm’s post at 12:31.

[Khandro]

ummmm; Thank you for your reply. I understand that you have turned away from the Catholic Church and all that entails, but would you now consider yourself to be an atheist because of this?

[grasscarp]

Read it. so which is ummmmm? Vulnerable, gullible or unable to speak for herself?

[pixie373]

I haven't seen any name-calling?
Naomi, i appreciated khandro's post, because earlier i asked for just one believer to explain why they believed, without reference to religious books (which i don't trust anyway). Although i don't agree with any of the post itself, he did at least explain himself from his own point of view. Many just provide quotes from other people as "proof".

[goodlife]

A test is a relatively easy one to make. If a religion is not in accord with what the Bible teaches, then it is not in harmony with truth.
Yet, your spiritual condition does have an impact on your physical and mental health.

Why, the evidence show by the statement made by Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago.

He said: Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need.” (Matthew 5:3) yes. Since your health and happiness are influenced by your spiritual condition, it makes sense to ask: what is involved in being a spiritual person.

So how did atheism came about?

[pixie373]

Goodlife, the bible can't provide proof of itself! Atheism is the default state- how everybody is born. The question is - how and why did religion come about? After all, religious books were written by humans. Why do you believe those people above others?

[Clanad]

In a nutshell, pixie373! You say "...the bible can't provide proof of itself!" But isn't it true that other books do provide proofs of themselves? Almost any school text book of any level is accepted as face value as true. The books are obviously open to investigation and falsification, but so is the Bible. It's withstood such investigation for thousands of years. Whether the reader chooses to accept the truth is a different matter though.

Additionally you say "... Atheism is the default state- how everybody is born…"

I'd ask how and why you come to that conclusion. There's no "proof" to your supposition as far as I can tell. No one (thankfully) has isolated a new born to be raised in such isolation until some age of maturity to see if they have developed a sense of spirituality or not…

The statements in your post are indicative of the unquestioning acceptance of your cohorts, isn't it? If the a-theists are truly fair minded seems to me there would be some discussion of your and other such unfounded positions...

[naomi24]

Pixie, ah, right. Sorry, didn’t realise that.

Grasscarp, Ummmm was vulnerable because she wasn’t allowed time to learn and to make an informed choice. She was indoctrinated from childhood – and when that happens few consider conducting a critical examination of that early teaching in later life – making them gullible. It’s all there for anyone who has the courage to ask questions - and Ummmm is to be commended for having the courage to ask those questions.

Goodlife, why do you bother to make statements you can’t justify? How do you separate fact from symbolic?

Atheism didn’t ‘come about’. Atheism is the default position of every human baby. No one is born with religion. Your God was first mentioned a few thousand years ago – man has existed for rather longer than that.

[Clanad]

Actually, naomi (thanks, by the way for proving my point) anthropologists include a test or investigation as to remnants of religiousness when excavating ancient remains of humans. This is one of the rather large disagreements in such circles as to the true humanity of Neanderthal (as an example). Many sites have been investigated of Neanderthal habitations, but few and arguably none have shown the signs of such religion being inherent in their 'society'… and this study, along with that of the Denisova hominin extends back over perhaps 100,000 years...

[naomi24]

Clanad, not with you. Which point?

[goodlife]

Let me help you It is a scientific and logical axiom Out of nothing, nothing comes.

Mathematically, zero times 1,000 is still zero! Even a child realizes this. If he takes his piggy bank, puts no money in it and hides it, and if no one touches it for days, even for months, when he takes it out what does he find?

Yes intelligence Still no money. Matter does not spontaneously appear or just “pop” into existence.

So how did atheism came about?

[Clanad]

At the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse, I wonder how a-theists explain the numerous (in my circle of acquaintances, nearly all) adults come to the conclusion of the truth of Scripture after being either a-theists or agnostics for many years? I've friends that are highly educated (as well as most who are divided among the less educated) who unabashedly declare their belief… can't all of them been brainwashed, could they?

[Clanad]

Naomi, the ability of the 'cadre' to accept statements made by others of the same mind-set without questioning the viability of such statements. You do this in spades in your last post addressed to Pixie, including repeating her non sequiturs...

[jim360]

If something as simple as matter cannot pop into existence (which, for that matter, it can), how does something so incredibly complex as God come into existence all on his own? It's strange, bizarre, odd, that you impose all these hefty constraints on the Universe, and then say that they do not apply to something beyond it.

[naomi24]

Goodlife, ah! I see what you’re saying. You don’t know how it happened but something must be responsible, and so you choose to attribute it to an unseen, mysterious, unknown, supernatural entity – just like the writers of the bible did. When you don’t know, the only truthful thing you can say is that you don’t know. Attributing the unknown to the unknown is just silly and achieves nothing.

Clanad, hoping for a ‘get out of death’ card. That’s your ultimate aim, isn’t it? If that wasn’t perceived to be on offer, there would be no reason whatsoever to abandon human dignity and decent human principles in favour of subservience to the appallingly unjust mentality of that particular God.

As for my post to Pixie, what would you like me to elaborate on or validate?

[chrisgel]

//the ability of the 'cadre' to accept statements made by others of the same mind-set without questioning the viability of such statements. //

An almost text book definition of religion.

[andy-hughes]

The majority of this thread's points seem to centre around the basic belief and non-belief systems.

If someone believes something - anything from God to the earth being flat - then that belief is sincerely held and shared, even though proof my be available to the contrary as in the earth situation.

Faith, by definition, is a belief in something that cannot be proven.

But what it finally boils down to is this - as far as this debate is concerned, you believe in God, or you do not believe in God.

I have ceased to believe in God from a child onwards, and see no reason to change that position. i am perfectly happy with my life as it is, and feel no need of comfort and a promise of a 'better' life beyond this one.

I fully understand people who do feel that way, but it does not alter my view.

What does bother me, and this is often reflected by some posters, goodlife being the prime example - is this ongoing 'I have something you need ...' approach by some believers, which often manifests itself as an arrogant and pitying approach to debate with an undeserved sense of superiority running through it.

The Q and A's on this thread are a microcosm of the world as a whole - believers and non-believers exist side by side, no-one knows who is right - but the believers feel that they hold the moral high ground, without the slightest evidence apart from their own atrtitude, that they belong there.

If your faith supports and susatins you, great, but do not confise that with a feeling that I must be lacking if i don't share your way of thinking - I'm not, and I don't.