Human Rights And Wrongs.

[jomifl]

http://www.ryot.org/photos-these-women-were-doused-in-acid-for-turning-down-marriage-proposals/559641

[naomi24]

It is indeed, Svejk, but I know of none that involves dowsing people in acid. Murdering them, yes. ;o)

[pixie373]

Naomi, the same reason i gave before. Character traits are inborn. Certain ones we know we are born with- and will always have a tendency to behave that way. It is the person that chooses behaviour (with the exception of some mental illnesses), not the religion. You are getting the cause and effect back to front.
If we are going to find any successful resolutions to these hideous crimes, it will come from a knowledge of human psychology, not from a knowledge of religions.

[pixie373]

I've put this on another thread, but just as relevant here -

To slightly misquote Andrew Lang-
//People use statistics much as a drunk uses a lamppost. For support, rather than illumination.//

[naomi24]

Pixie, I've used no statistics and I'm getting nothing back to front. I've simply asked you to tell me why these psychopaths you talk about appear to be far more prevalent within Islam than within any other religion - and I'm still waiting for a answer to that. It's easy to dismiss the negative influence of religion by saying that the character traits of Islamic terrorists are inborn - but it doesn't work. You are dismissing religion, but anyone with a knowledge of psychology is very well aware that religion can and does affect the human psyche very profoundly. Suicide bombers are Muslims long before they become terrorists - as are the Islamic murderers who have a penchant for separating heads from bodies. Only from Islam do we see this ghastly on-going plethora of acts of barbarism. Why?

[pixie373]

Because the "tendency" is there before religion is. I am not dismissing religion. It's a tool used to do harm by evil people (like guns). Those that have the highest genes for criminality (and these are inherited- hence possibly higher in certain cultures)- are hugely more likely to commit crimes at some point in their life. This is one trait that we know and have proven to be inborn. If religion did not exist, these people would still do harm and this is the highest problem. As far as i can see, i have answered your question several times on different threads. I think, because you are focussing on the religion and not the behaviour- you are perhaps not seeing my point?

[Svejk]

their religion might give them a focus for their 'tendencies'.
a justification for their acts, if you like.

[pixie373]

By blaming religion, i think we have several disadvantages-
- that we are denying personal responsibility. Everybody has this, unless they have particular mental illnesses
- it implies if religion didn't exist, these "people" would be harmless. They wouldn't - genetics don't work that way
- we waste time criticising a belief system, when we should be looking for genuine, realistic ways to change things.
It won't happen soon enough- but whatever happens we need to understand the motivations and behaviour first. It isn't as simple as "my religion told me to do it"- or ALL Muslims would be.

[pixie373]

Exactly svejk. Why let them use it as an excuse? They have a choice as we all do. Individually or together.

[jomifl]

I think this behaviour is a side effect of some religions. As soon a women are regarded as second class citizens then men are elevated (in their minds) to a special superior class. This is what I think of as the 'little prince' syndrome where it is seen as unreasonable that an inferior being should deprive them of what they want. Add to this a culture of vengeance for even trivial slights and the result is acid throwing, honour killings and all the rest of it. In some countries where murder is a crime these crimes of vanity seem to get the 'blind eye' treatment as they seem to be tolerated by the justice system which just allows the practices to be propogated to further generations.

[naomi24]

Pixie, but they're not denying personal responsibility. They are accepting personal responsibility because they truly believe that what they do is what Allah wants them to do. In their own minds they are right to do what they do. You make the mistake of endowing others with your own mentality - with your own ability to reason - but an ability to rationalise in the way you do is something these people do not possess. This mindset is like no other - it cannot be compared. Fundamentalist Islamists are completely indoctrinated. They live rigidly by the book. It stands to reason that if more Muslims display psychopathic tendancies than people from any other religious group, something rather more than nature is influencing them.

[pixie373]

Religion certainly doesn't help. Although if people are incapable of thinking rationally and making their own decisions or genuinely believe they are doing what is required of them by Allah- then they are literally mentally ill. In fact, more and more studies are correlating religion with mental illness. And if that proves to be the case, it will be back to the drawing board for resolution. Personally, i do believe there is far more to it than following religion- especially as it is not all followers of any religion- so some individual decision there for a start.

[Khandro]

Naomi; // they truly believe that what they do is what Allah wants them to do.//
Are you seriously suggesting anyone believes 'Allah' wants them to throw acid in a woman's face? There is absolutely no religious dimension to such barbarous acts whatsoever.
And Jom; Do you have to be reminded that until very recent times women were considered to be second class citizens in western white societies too?

[viv38]

How recent Khandro ??

[naomi24]

Khandro, I'm seriously suggesting that because the book tells men that women are inferior and that they are possessions, some truly believe they can do to females whatever they want to do. Only recently a father escaped any sort of justice for raping his five year old daughter - so it would appear the judge believed it too. I can't supply a link - as I said I'm away at the moment and have very poor internet connection - but I'm sure you'll find it easily if you google.

[viv38]

And he tries to compare that with how Western women were treated !!

[jomifl]

/And Jom; Do you have to be reminded that until very recent times women were considered to be second class citizens in western white societies too?
/not at all, when was the last time a woman was stoned to death in Western Europe (by Western Europeans, not by an immigrant ethnic minority).

[viv38]

Let's see if he answers you jom, he didn't answer me at 16:07 and I have to go now.

By the way I agree with Ratter !

[Khandro]

jom; Different cultures different punishments. Ruth Ellis was only the last of the women to be hanged by the neck until dead, in England, within my lifetime.
viv; You should look at the lot of he poor dispossessed women in Victorian Britain.
Naomi; There are probably more outrageous acts of paedophilia going on now in the West than there ever was in the East. The 'judge' in you anecdote is the one who should be stoned though.

[kvalidir]

I can't remember the last time women were stoned to death in our High street no, but it is within the living memory of most of the people posting here (1996) that thousands of women, girls and their babies were incarcerated against their will and died at the hands of the Magdalene Sisters in Ireland being denied proper care, food and medical assistance. It's also within the living memory of some who post on here (1945) that women were 'tar and feathered' by Kangaroo courts after WWII for having sex with enemy soldiers, any children resulting from such a union were also usually forcibly removed. It's within your living memory also (1991) that it was thought okay to rape a woman as long as you were her husband.
You might want to consider that all civilisations have their violent lunatics often backed by religion, and some of ours were pretty recent too.