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Does It Say In The Quran That You Should Kill Jews/christians/unbelievers?
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Why would god create everyone and then tell one group to kill another? That makes no sense if it's true
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birdie; //Q: Do you really think that you would be afforded the same rights under an Islamic Caliphate that we in west give to muslims?[sic] //
The reason I refer to this as an idiotic question is that no such thing exists, nor is it likely to be. However, if you mean how would I personally fare under a regime run by the Isis terrorists operating in Syria and Iraq - "The world's richest terror group" (see today's D. Telegraph) then, because of my views on them, I would no doubt be beheaded forthwith.
These people soil the name of the religion Islam, and are being censured and reproached by Sunni and Shia clerics alike.
The reason I refer to this as an idiotic question is that no such thing exists, nor is it likely to be. However, if you mean how would I personally fare under a regime run by the Isis terrorists operating in Syria and Iraq - "The world's richest terror group" (see today's D. Telegraph) then, because of my views on them, I would no doubt be beheaded forthwith.
These people soil the name of the religion Islam, and are being censured and reproached by Sunni and Shia clerics alike.
Birdie's mention of Burke reminded me of the recent two programmes presented by Melvyn Bragg, the first on John Ball and other on Tom Paine. Did anyone watch them? Shows how superior political and moral discourse in in the West is to that of the Islamic world. We have the same theme of social justice for sure, but also concepts which, I suggest , are only dimly comprehended (if at all) by Khandro's new best friends - tolerance, free speech and the rights of man.
Khandro - "... The reason I refer to this as an idiotic question is that no such thing exists, nor is it likely to be. However, if you mean how would I personally fare under a regime run by the Isis terrorists operating in Syria and Iraq..."
Oh dear me. Your posts are getting more desperate every day.
You've deliberately attempted to side-step my question by modifying it. Then you've answered your own modified version of my question. The old 'straw man' logical fallacy. Did you think I wouldn't notice? Really?
Well done you! You've now introduced two of the best known logical fallacies into this debate - the 'ad hominem' and the 'straw man'. I have some lovely links to help prevent you from making such a show of yourself in the future:
https:/
https:/
No, no. There's no need to thank me. You're very welcome.
Oh dear me. Your posts are getting more desperate every day.
You've deliberately attempted to side-step my question by modifying it. Then you've answered your own modified version of my question. The old 'straw man' logical fallacy. Did you think I wouldn't notice? Really?
Well done you! You've now introduced two of the best known logical fallacies into this debate - the 'ad hominem' and the 'straw man'. I have some lovely links to help prevent you from making such a show of yourself in the future:
https:/
https:/
No, no. There's no need to thank me. You're very welcome.
Khandro -
My question is not idiotic. It's entirely relevant and apposite. The reason you've attempted to change it is because you also know just how relevant it is. The fact that a true Islamic Caliphate doesn't exist in the world today is no defence to the charge of asking you how you would fare under such circumstances. The Islamic 'religion' is anti-freedom in every sense of the word as we understand it and yet you defend it with a zealotry that I find unfathomable. Islam is as much a political system as it is a religions one and you know that you personally would be greatly disadvantaged if you were unfortunate enough to find yourself living in a country ruled on Islamic principals. And yet you defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths and with the full knowledge that you may very well be murdered by people who honestly believe that non-muslims should be killed for the 'crime' of believing in someone other than Allah.
There is a term known as, "useful idiot" that I think sums you up. I'm not suggesting that you are an 'idiot' but I am suggesting that you're hopelessly deluded when it comes to Islam. Please, please, please educate yourself.
http://
My question is not idiotic. It's entirely relevant and apposite. The reason you've attempted to change it is because you also know just how relevant it is. The fact that a true Islamic Caliphate doesn't exist in the world today is no defence to the charge of asking you how you would fare under such circumstances. The Islamic 'religion' is anti-freedom in every sense of the word as we understand it and yet you defend it with a zealotry that I find unfathomable. Islam is as much a political system as it is a religions one and you know that you personally would be greatly disadvantaged if you were unfortunate enough to find yourself living in a country ruled on Islamic principals. And yet you defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths and with the full knowledge that you may very well be murdered by people who honestly believe that non-muslims should be killed for the 'crime' of believing in someone other than Allah.
There is a term known as, "useful idiot" that I think sums you up. I'm not suggesting that you are an 'idiot' but I am suggesting that you're hopelessly deluded when it comes to Islam. Please, please, please educate yourself.
http://
Oh dear! another nocturnal outpouring from our resident Koranic scholar and now purveyor of lessons in rhetoric. You've already used your 'useful idiot insult' previously, and to a lady too! (maggiebee).
For someone who has a "near pathological hatred of liars" you are quite good at it yourself. You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? Is it perhaps that I draw different conclusions from you?
I have asked what translated versions people are reading but you don't tell us. Your favourite quote like many Islamaphobes is 2:191, but you fail to ever put it into context or add its continuation. I have read both the translations of Yusif Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall, both as I have said above, seem to be the most accepted English versions by both Sunni and Shias, Pickthall continues; "Drive them out of the places they drove you out of" - in other words; retaliate. And then; "Fight them until persecution is no more" = i.e. until defeat or surrender, - normal terms of engagement in warfare.
The Koran translated by Ali is very similar in its wording. I have also above in reply to Peter Pedant, 17:15 Thu. covered the word 'qatluhum' through Google translate as 'Fight them'.
The copy I have in front of me now; translation by maulana Wahiduddin Khan does indeed say 'Slay them', but follows immediately in parenthesis with [those who fight against you].
As someone who has no belief whatsoever in God you are bound to find most of the Koran and other sacred texts incomprehensible, that can't be helped, but if you insist in reading it, try some other versions and also try keeping everything in context.
I am not a Muslim nor am I likely to become one, but Islam is not going to go away, and I feel it is better to try to understand it than to denigrate it out of ignorance.
As salaam alaikum (Peace be unto you).
For someone who has a "near pathological hatred of liars" you are quite good at it yourself. You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? Is it perhaps that I draw different conclusions from you?
I have asked what translated versions people are reading but you don't tell us. Your favourite quote like many Islamaphobes is 2:191, but you fail to ever put it into context or add its continuation. I have read both the translations of Yusif Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall, both as I have said above, seem to be the most accepted English versions by both Sunni and Shias, Pickthall continues; "Drive them out of the places they drove you out of" - in other words; retaliate. And then; "Fight them until persecution is no more" = i.e. until defeat or surrender, - normal terms of engagement in warfare.
The Koran translated by Ali is very similar in its wording. I have also above in reply to Peter Pedant, 17:15 Thu. covered the word 'qatluhum' through Google translate as 'Fight them'.
The copy I have in front of me now; translation by maulana Wahiduddin Khan does indeed say 'Slay them', but follows immediately in parenthesis with [those who fight against you].
As someone who has no belief whatsoever in God you are bound to find most of the Koran and other sacred texts incomprehensible, that can't be helped, but if you insist in reading it, try some other versions and also try keeping everything in context.
I am not a Muslim nor am I likely to become one, but Islam is not going to go away, and I feel it is better to try to understand it than to denigrate it out of ignorance.
As salaam alaikum (Peace be unto you).
Funny old day: Lewis Hamilton shafted by team mate; Birdie shafted by Khandro. No, last bit not that funny or unexpected. Come to it, possibly not the first bit, either.
Retire to dining room for avocado, beef with green peppers and a Bulgarian cab sauv. Will try to compose a vitriolic personal attack on second favourite Wagnerian (in the best spirit of R&S).
Retire to dining room for avocado, beef with green peppers and a Bulgarian cab sauv. Will try to compose a vitriolic personal attack on second favourite Wagnerian (in the best spirit of R&S).
v_e; At risk of bifurcation, Janice Robinson says; "My first wine trip to Bulgaria was both fascinating and frustrating. I could see that my fellow travellers, young drinks writers from Bulgarian wine's principal export markets in northern Europe, were quite shocked by some of what we saw.
Used to gleaming ranks of stainless steel tanks in Australian techno mode, they had to rearrange their faces when confronted with the sixties-Soviet-style of winery which still predominates in Bulgaria. The dingy halls full of concrete vats and pipes of dubious cleanliness, rusting metal, broken window panes and over-womanned, snail's pace bottling lines presented an unrecognisably retro face of wine production to them."
After a bottle or two of that, I wait in trepidation for the vitriol.
Used to gleaming ranks of stainless steel tanks in Australian techno mode, they had to rearrange their faces when confronted with the sixties-Soviet-style of winery which still predominates in Bulgaria. The dingy halls full of concrete vats and pipes of dubious cleanliness, rusting metal, broken window panes and over-womanned, snail's pace bottling lines presented an unrecognisably retro face of wine production to them."
After a bottle or two of that, I wait in trepidation for the vitriol.
Khandro - "... Oh dear! another nocturnal outpouring from our resident Koranic scholar..."
Keyplus used to berate me for the hours of my posts. Do the hours of my posts concern you? If so, why? Is there some rule that says one cannot conduct a serious debate between certain hours of the day or night?
--- "... You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? Is it perhaps that I draw different conclusions from you?..."
No. The accusation that you haven't bothered to read the Koran or the Hadiths was not mine. I did ask you specifically if the accusation was true but you never bothered to answer.
--- "... The copy I have in front of me now; translation by maulana Wahiduddin Khan does indeed say 'Slay them', but follows immediately in parenthesis with [those who fight against you]..."
And I have already explained what phrases such as "those who fight against [Islam]" mean. You are "fighting" and "opposing" Islam by not being a muslim. I am "fighting" and "opposing" Islam by being an atheist. You say it yourself, that people who fight and oppose Islam should be killed according to Islamic doctrine.
--- "... As someone who has no belief whatsoever in God you are bound to find most of the Koran and other sacred texts incomprehensible..."
Oh grow up. Just because I don't believe in God does not make Islam 'incomprehensible' to me. Just as Christianity is not 'incomprehensible' to me either. I understand religion and religious texts - I just don't believe that they are factually accurate. This line of argument is actually quite moronic. I would say 'shame on you' but unfortunately I don't think that you have any.
--- "... I am not a Muslim nor am I likely to become one, but Islam is not going to go away, and I feel it is better to try to understand it than to denigrate it out of ignorance..."
I agree. I do understand Islam and I know it's not going to go away. I don't denigrate Islam out of ignorance. I denigrate it and despise it because I understand it. That it what you are failing to grasp. You seem to think that my dislike of Islam is borne from ignorance - it isn't. It is borne from understanding. Conversely, your defence of Islam *is* borne from ignorance. You are ignorant of the Koranic scriptures and you are ignorant of the concepts of Kitman and Taqiyya.
AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION:
'Do you believe that your human rights would be unaffected while living under an Islamic system of governance?'
Keyplus used to berate me for the hours of my posts. Do the hours of my posts concern you? If so, why? Is there some rule that says one cannot conduct a serious debate between certain hours of the day or night?
--- "... You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? Is it perhaps that I draw different conclusions from you?..."
No. The accusation that you haven't bothered to read the Koran or the Hadiths was not mine. I did ask you specifically if the accusation was true but you never bothered to answer.
--- "... The copy I have in front of me now; translation by maulana Wahiduddin Khan does indeed say 'Slay them', but follows immediately in parenthesis with [those who fight against you]..."
And I have already explained what phrases such as "those who fight against [Islam]" mean. You are "fighting" and "opposing" Islam by not being a muslim. I am "fighting" and "opposing" Islam by being an atheist. You say it yourself, that people who fight and oppose Islam should be killed according to Islamic doctrine.
--- "... As someone who has no belief whatsoever in God you are bound to find most of the Koran and other sacred texts incomprehensible..."
Oh grow up. Just because I don't believe in God does not make Islam 'incomprehensible' to me. Just as Christianity is not 'incomprehensible' to me either. I understand religion and religious texts - I just don't believe that they are factually accurate. This line of argument is actually quite moronic. I would say 'shame on you' but unfortunately I don't think that you have any.
--- "... I am not a Muslim nor am I likely to become one, but Islam is not going to go away, and I feel it is better to try to understand it than to denigrate it out of ignorance..."
I agree. I do understand Islam and I know it's not going to go away. I don't denigrate Islam out of ignorance. I denigrate it and despise it because I understand it. That it what you are failing to grasp. You seem to think that my dislike of Islam is borne from ignorance - it isn't. It is borne from understanding. Conversely, your defence of Islam *is* borne from ignorance. You are ignorant of the Koranic scriptures and you are ignorant of the concepts of Kitman and Taqiyya.
AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION:
'Do you believe that your human rights would be unaffected while living under an Islamic system of governance?'
v_e; At risk of bifurcation, Janice Robinson says; "My first wine trip to Bulgaria was both fascinating and frustrating. I could see that my fellow travellers, young drinks writers from Bulgarian wine's principal export markets in northern Europe, were quite shocked by some of what we saw.
Used to gleaming ranks of stainless steel tanks in Australian techno mode, they had to rearrange their faces when confronted with the sixties-Soviet-style of winery which still predominates in Bulgaria. The dingy halls full of concrete vats and pipes of dubious cleanliness, rusting metal, broken window panes and over-womanned, snail's pace bottling lines presented an unrecognisably retro face of wine production to them."
After a bottle or two of that, I wait in trepidation for the vitriol.
I thought I knew a little about theology but the above has got me really confused.
Used to gleaming ranks of stainless steel tanks in Australian techno mode, they had to rearrange their faces when confronted with the sixties-Soviet-style of winery which still predominates in Bulgaria. The dingy halls full of concrete vats and pipes of dubious cleanliness, rusting metal, broken window panes and over-womanned, snail's pace bottling lines presented an unrecognisably retro face of wine production to them."
After a bottle or two of that, I wait in trepidation for the vitriol.
I thought I knew a little about theology but the above has got me really confused.
In vino veritas, Obiter.
What I didn't mention is that our lunch on Sunday started with a Moldovan chardonnay. Yes, you heard it right - Moldova. I wonder if Jancis (for that is her name) has ever been there.
The Bulgarian winery has the bizarre portmanteau name "Domaine Boyar", Khandro. Whatever next - Commune Kulak?
What I didn't mention is that our lunch on Sunday started with a Moldovan chardonnay. Yes, you heard it right - Moldova. I wonder if Jancis (for that is her name) has ever been there.
The Bulgarian winery has the bizarre portmanteau name "Domaine Boyar", Khandro. Whatever next - Commune Kulak?
Khandro to Birdie:
'You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? '
He may be quoting earlier posts by me on Mon 4th and Tuesday 5th, Khandro. In one of these I attacked the Koran for being "infused with hatred for those who reject .. God's messenger". These were in response to this post of yours among others:
"What you are quoting there (why?) [it was a quotation taken directly and verbatim from the Al Bukhari web site - VE] is not from the Koran.
The answer to the OP is emphatically "no", it does not say you should kill people of different faiths, no matter what rubbish and lies are being spread about on the internet".
I readily repeat Birdie's "lie" in the form of some questions:
(1) so three weeks ago you'd never heard of Al Bukhari (even though I had given a link to the Al Bukhari hadith web-site)? So whose hadiths had you read at that time?
(2) you couldn't remember ever having read any of the many verses in the Koran (we'll forget any possible war-time context) which promise terrible punishment, God's wrath and eternal torment in the next world to those who reject God's Messenger (even if they don't get their come-uppance in this)? Come on now, the two approved translations you were using hadn't excluded them all, had they? I would have expected someone who had read the Koran not to deny their presence, but to "explain" or justify them in some way. Why didn't you?
Of course, there's no good reason why even a polymath like you should be an expert in everything, but you'll forgive me ... for smelling a rat? - whoops - that's a cliche!... for being unconvinced by your affectation of Islamic knowledge: I can't see any patina of age to it. I think it was made in China three weeks ago and shipped over here in a container ship.
PS. Loved your post on Bucaille,textual criticism etc. Dodgy ground there, mate! Did you say that the Koran contains scientific errors? Oh dear.
'You keep asserting the lie that I "defend Islam without ever having read the Koran nor the Hadiths", on what do you base this? '
He may be quoting earlier posts by me on Mon 4th and Tuesday 5th, Khandro. In one of these I attacked the Koran for being "infused with hatred for those who reject .. God's messenger". These were in response to this post of yours among others:
"What you are quoting there (why?) [it was a quotation taken directly and verbatim from the Al Bukhari web site - VE] is not from the Koran.
The answer to the OP is emphatically "no", it does not say you should kill people of different faiths, no matter what rubbish and lies are being spread about on the internet".
I readily repeat Birdie's "lie" in the form of some questions:
(1) so three weeks ago you'd never heard of Al Bukhari (even though I had given a link to the Al Bukhari hadith web-site)? So whose hadiths had you read at that time?
(2) you couldn't remember ever having read any of the many verses in the Koran (we'll forget any possible war-time context) which promise terrible punishment, God's wrath and eternal torment in the next world to those who reject God's Messenger (even if they don't get their come-uppance in this)? Come on now, the two approved translations you were using hadn't excluded them all, had they? I would have expected someone who had read the Koran not to deny their presence, but to "explain" or justify them in some way. Why didn't you?
Of course, there's no good reason why even a polymath like you should be an expert in everything, but you'll forgive me ... for smelling a rat? - whoops - that's a cliche!... for being unconvinced by your affectation of Islamic knowledge: I can't see any patina of age to it. I think it was made in China three weeks ago and shipped over here in a container ship.
PS. Loved your post on Bucaille,textual criticism etc. Dodgy ground there, mate! Did you say that the Koran contains scientific errors? Oh dear.
v-e; An awful lot of surmising going on in there "mate". I first and last read the Koran cover to cover about a quarter of a century ago, not being a devout Muslim, I didn't memorise it, did you? No, but like most, I delve into relevant parts and check out things on the internet.
//Did you say that the Koran contains scientific errors? Oh dear.//
Yes it most certainly does, would you like a list? what about the moon emitting light for a start, and much more on astronomy alone.
//Did you say that the Koran contains scientific errors? Oh dear.//
Yes it most certainly does, would you like a list? what about the moon emitting light for a start, and much more on astronomy alone.
@Khandro
I posted on (page 9), suggesting that the verse in question suggests that Muslims may defend Medina but, as God hates transgressors (I said trespassers, as an alternative), they have no rights of conquest beyond that city and its immediate surroundings.
You weren't reacting to that specifically but you said
//Pickthall continues; "Drive them out of the places they drove you out of" - in other words; retaliate. And then; "Fight them until persecution is no more" = i.e. until defeat or surrender, - normal terms of engagement in warfare. //
Which I take to mean that they -can- conquer areas beyond Medina, taking lands off whoever attacked them first until they are either all dead or have surrendered.
It's Imperialism, Jim, but not as we know it.
Passive-Aggressive Imperialism, in a nutshell.
I posted on (page 9), suggesting that the verse in question suggests that Muslims may defend Medina but, as God hates transgressors (I said trespassers, as an alternative), they have no rights of conquest beyond that city and its immediate surroundings.
You weren't reacting to that specifically but you said
//Pickthall continues; "Drive them out of the places they drove you out of" - in other words; retaliate. And then; "Fight them until persecution is no more" = i.e. until defeat or surrender, - normal terms of engagement in warfare. //
Which I take to mean that they -can- conquer areas beyond Medina, taking lands off whoever attacked them first until they are either all dead or have surrendered.
It's Imperialism, Jim, but not as we know it.
Passive-Aggressive Imperialism, in a nutshell.
Mysterious silence from Khandro. Not like him to give up.
Does the Koran name any actual tribes who attacked Muslim lands, in general, or Medina, to be specific? Have they been either obliterated or assimilated?
Any reference to Jews or Christians as targets (beyond them fitting the generalised unbeliever category)?
Does the Koran name any actual tribes who attacked Muslim lands, in general, or Medina, to be specific? Have they been either obliterated or assimilated?
Any reference to Jews or Christians as targets (beyond them fitting the generalised unbeliever category)?
Hypo; No need to restrict yourself to the region of North Africa. The Muslim conquests of Afghanistan and India from the 12th to the 16th century, were for the Buddhist and Hindu population a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign and similar numbers deported as slaves. The conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter.
But how some Muslims have behaved isn't what the question is about, and I should not be expected to justify their motivation, which many would claim today was (and still is) misinterpretation of certain passages of the Koran. To answer the OP directly, you can read Surah 2:62.
'The believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds - will be rewarded by their Lord; they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.'
But how some Muslims have behaved isn't what the question is about, and I should not be expected to justify their motivation, which many would claim today was (and still is) misinterpretation of certain passages of the Koran. To answer the OP directly, you can read Surah 2:62.
'The believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds - will be rewarded by their Lord; they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.'
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