A Programme That Might Be An Eye Opener For Islamophobes...

[sandyRoe]

...can be heard on Radio 4 this afternoon at 4pm. Who'll be listening?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055g740

[andy-hughes]

dieseldick - I am sure you understand that interperetation is everything in religion.

Take for example Communion in the Catholic church. No-one believes they are actually eating Christ's flesh or drinking his blood - it's about symbolism.

If I could be bothered, and I can't to be honest - I could find loads of bloodthirsty quotes in the Bible exhorting followers to murder non-believers, but people don't, because it was written in more violent and reactionary times, and its message in that sense has no place for civilised modern society.

I see no difference with the Quran.

Of course, you can find psychopaths in any faith who will use their holy book on which to hang their perverted beliefs, but to try and include an entire religion in the beliefs and actions of a deluded few is surely not rational.

If that argument flies, then Westboro Baptist Church is the leading light on behaviour at military funerals - because they derive their ethos from the Bible, or more accurately, the spin they choose to place on what they read.

[trt]

I wont be listening as I am fed up to the teeth of hearing about Muslims.

Its in the papers daily, on the TV everyday about this and that, and I feel sorry for those people that live in densely populated areas of the religion, that seems to be trying to take over our Christian way of life.

[andy-hughes]

trt - // ... that seems to be trying to take over our Christian way of life. //

I suggest they'd have to find it first - no easy task!!!!

[naomi24]

“Who’ll be listening?” I won’t – got to go out, but I’ll listen later.

andy-hughes, have you read the Koran – or the Bible?

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, have you read the Koran – or the Bible? //

I understood you to be not willing to further my education in matters religious - so I'll decline to answer your question. Thank you.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, I'm not offering to further your education. I asked you a simple question. I take it that will be a 'no' then.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - // I take it that will be a 'no' then. //

You can take it how you like - it's for me to know.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, nice try but not so. By your own admission your knowledge of Islam is media-based. In retrospect it was a pointless question really. ;o)

Back to the subject. The term ‘moderate’ is regarded by many Muslims as an insult. As one interviewee says “I don’t really get what a moderate Muslim is”. The reporter, a Muslim himself, concludes, “Progress will only be achieved within the British Muslim community by challenging the notion that religion can exist outside culture or Islam cannot evolve and adapt. It is naive to believe that progress is inevitable. It needs us to assume less and argue more [Amen to that – my words] if we believe in a British Muslim community that is progressive, tolerant, and moderate.”

sandyRoe, you’ve shot yourself in the foot with the heading you chose for this thread. You'd have been wiser to listen to the programme before posting because rather than it being an eye-opener for Islamophobes it's more of an eye-opener for apologists. I sincerely hope they listen to it – and learn.

[sandyRoe]

If I had listened to the programme, and it was as you described, then I wouldn't have posted at all. :-(

[naomi24]

I don't doubt it.

[David H]

I loved it, and was amazed the BBC of all people were prepared to expose Islam naked and by a Muslim on top. It pretty much confirmed what are probably many people's assumptions, that the Koran is above all other rules, and while some tolerate those who do not follow them (despite choosing to live in western countries knowing beforehand they wouldn't) few said they couldn't themselves. The one who said he shook women's hands as it was offensive here not to, but knew it was a sin pretty well covered the general areas. The rules are pretty much written in stone, and if the one who was trying to get them to relax a bit expects to get very far as an individual against Allah and his combined resources I can't see that getting very far. In the end it makes me mystified why anyone with such strict rules would want to go to a country with none of them and expect to lead a comfortable life surrounded by what they would consider a nest of sin. Plus its unique status as 'The only true religion' (as converts revert as it is assumed we were all Muslims at birth) means they are not supposed to accept infidels but kill or convert them. Those who support that view say they are the only true Muslims, not us.

[SirOracle]

Andy -Hughes // Take for instance Communion in the Catholic Church. No one believes they are actually eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood-it's about symbolism //

You are so wrong Andy. Roman Catholics believe in Transubstantiation not consubstantiation,which is the doctrine of Anglicans.
I am presuming you are not an RC and perhaps it would be better for you not to tell everyone what RCs believe.

[birdie1971]

If anyone want to see what "moderate" muslims say when they think that only other muslims are listening, try watching Channel 4's 'Dispatches' documentaries called "Undercover Mosque" and "Undercover Mosque - The Return".

http://goo.gl/VcSBCs
http://goo.gl/dbxXJG

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, nice try but not so. By your own admission your knowledge of Islam is media-based. In retrospect it was a pointless question really. ;o) //

You have said that you don't want to get involved in any of my 'spats', so why don't you stick to what you have said. I have no interest in what you have to say, and that includes your responses to my posts. So try and stick to your word, for once.

[andy-hughes]

SirOracle - //Andy -Hughes // Take for instance Communion in the Catholic Church. No one believes they are actually eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood-it's about symbolism //

You are so wrong Andy. Roman Catholics believe in Transubstantiation not consubstantiation,which is the doctrine of Anglicans. //

I stand by what I said - the act is symbolic.

//I am presuming you are not an RC and perhaps it would be better for you not to tell everyone what RCs believe. //

I am not an RC, but I do attend Mass every Sunday, and see the ceremony in action. I am not 'telling everyone' anything - I am offering an opinion on something, which is the principle of debate.

I didn't think it necessary to add 'I am only saying what I think ...' to every post, or 'This is a fact ...' - people can usually figure out the difference in my experience on this section.

I have never executed anyone, but I have an opinion on Capital Punishment - if I were to offer a view, would you assume me to be an executioner? Hopefully not.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, oh dear. :o)

SirOracle, you are quite right. Transubstantiation is not a matter of opinion – it’s an established tenet of Roman Catholic doctrine, so the faithful do believe in it – well, at least they’re supposed to.

[naomi24]

David, //the Koran is above all other rules//

That’s what Islam would like us to believe but in reality Muslims do in some respects disregard the Koran completely in favour of the teachings of Mohammed, for example in the matter of circumcision. The Koran specifically forbids the alteration of Allah’s creation in any way, but Mohammed recommended circumcision and therefore all Muslim men are circumcised. It seems to me that when writing the Koran, Mohammed, whose newly constructed religion was a distinct imitation of Judaism, missed that bit – so to speak. :o)

[Jackdaw33]

Consubstantial has nothing to do with the Eucharist. It merely means that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.

[sandyRoe]

We do believe that when the celebrant of the Mass utters the words: 'Hoc est corpus meum', we witness a miracle.

[naomi24]

^Bless you my son. ;o)