Butterflies On Bbc4 Tuesday 7.45
Film, Media & TV0 min ago
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God.
186 Answers
Hi There I saw a post on facebook that said Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. And I copied it on to my wall. Anyway one of my really pc friends said that is not true and it is hate crime to say that and if it is not removed she will phone the police. But surely that is true. Muslims worship Allah where as Christians worship God?
Answers
Not being a user of Facebook I thought gordie had put the message up in his living room. (copied it on to my wall)
09:59 Wed 23rd Dec 2015
I note Khandro has neglected to respond to me – again. That speaks volumes. :o)
Onwards!
/Stubborn atheism is no better than the intolerance of the fanatically religious. /
Stubborn atheism? How can atheism be anything but stubborn? Absence of belief elicits no half-measures, no questions, no doubts. How would you suggest we change that, Khandro?
Onwards!
/Stubborn atheism is no better than the intolerance of the fanatically religious. /
Stubborn atheism? How can atheism be anything but stubborn? Absence of belief elicits no half-measures, no questions, no doubts. How would you suggest we change that, Khandro?
I have found atheists of AB to be the most arrogant, the most stubborn, the most intolerant and the most self-praising. Atheism’s root reason, argument, cause is that I know more than you do.
Khandro has made two basic mistakes on this thread, one, he liked my post (which itself is a big crime here in the eyes of a few) and then he called atheist stubborn, one word out of a few I used above. If you do not agree with whatever I said in the first paragraph then just sit, relax, and watch what Kahndro will have to face now. Don’t worry about the original question gordie asked.
Khandro has made two basic mistakes on this thread, one, he liked my post (which itself is a big crime here in the eyes of a few) and then he called atheist stubborn, one word out of a few I used above. If you do not agree with whatever I said in the first paragraph then just sit, relax, and watch what Kahndro will have to face now. Don’t worry about the original question gordie asked.
naomi; Let me make this clear, I have said all I have to say about the odious S.Fry (which you have even quoted) so he and his man/wife can go to hell for all I care, and you may join him if you feel inclined.
With regards to atheism, it comes in different nuances. What I call stubborn or bovine atheism says "There is no God" with the subheading, "and anyone who thinks otherwise is not as smart as I am" and is subscribed to, from memory on this thread by 4, one of whom is you.
The other kind of atheism I would describe as moderate, or intelligent atheism says, "I do not believe in God", (quite a difference)
Then we have the Agnostics who say " Nothing is, or can be known of God".
Also, we have the Buddhist (and other) view which says, " There may be a God and there may not be a God, but either way, it is you who will have to find your own salvation".
Beyond that, we enter the realm of those who, coming in a myriad of shapes and sizes, say outright, "I believe in God".
I hope that clarifies things for you.
With regards to atheism, it comes in different nuances. What I call stubborn or bovine atheism says "There is no God" with the subheading, "and anyone who thinks otherwise is not as smart as I am" and is subscribed to, from memory on this thread by 4, one of whom is you.
The other kind of atheism I would describe as moderate, or intelligent atheism says, "I do not believe in God", (quite a difference)
Then we have the Agnostics who say " Nothing is, or can be known of God".
Also, we have the Buddhist (and other) view which says, " There may be a God and there may not be a God, but either way, it is you who will have to find your own salvation".
Beyond that, we enter the realm of those who, coming in a myriad of shapes and sizes, say outright, "I believe in God".
I hope that clarifies things for you.
//I have said all I have to say about the odious S.Fry (which you have even quoted) so he and his man/wife can go to hell for all I care, and you may join him if you feel inclined. //
Ahh, Khandro. The great philosophical ambassador for religion - and full of the gentle and loving spirit of Christmas too. ;o)
Ahh, Khandro. The great philosophical ambassador for religion - and full of the gentle and loving spirit of Christmas too. ;o)
For Khandro & keyplus90.
“Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply an admission of the obvious. In fact, 'atheism' is a term that should not even exist. No one needs to identify himself as a 'non-astrologer' or a 'non-alchemist.' We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.”
― Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation
“Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply an admission of the obvious. In fact, 'atheism' is a term that should not even exist. No one needs to identify himself as a 'non-astrologer' or a 'non-alchemist.' We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.”
― Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation
Who says... "There is no God" with the subheading, "and anyone who thinks otherwise is not as smart as I am" .
Let's redraft this. My version is:
"There is no God OF THE SORT described in the Old Testament or the Koran; and anybody who thinks there is must be mentally feeble, or morally defective, or, possibly, both".
Does that leave me in or add me to the Naomi Four? Or place me outside of it?
A Merry Christmas to you all.
Let's redraft this. My version is:
"There is no God OF THE SORT described in the Old Testament or the Koran; and anybody who thinks there is must be mentally feeble, or morally defective, or, possibly, both".
Does that leave me in or add me to the Naomi Four? Or place me outside of it?
A Merry Christmas to you all.
I think I know the bit you mean, CrapAtCryptics:
"Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, who do not hold illicit what God and His Messenger hold illicit, and who do not follow the religion of truth from among those given the Book, until they offer up the tribute, by hand, in humble mien,
The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say Christ is the son of God. That is what they say from their very mouths, thereby agreeing with the speech of the unbelievers who came before. May God strike them down!".
In fact every page of the Koran is stamped with the same message of love and tolerance.
"Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, who do not hold illicit what God and His Messenger hold illicit, and who do not follow the religion of truth from among those given the Book, until they offer up the tribute, by hand, in humble mien,
The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say Christ is the son of God. That is what they say from their very mouths, thereby agreeing with the speech of the unbelievers who came before. May God strike them down!".
In fact every page of the Koran is stamped with the same message of love and tolerance.
Khandro, // What I call stubborn or bovine atheism says "There is no God" with the subheading, "and anyone who thinks otherwise is not as smart as I am" and is subscribed to, from memory on this thread by 4, one of whom is you.//
Just a hint of paranoia there, do you think? Well, whatever, both your memory and your eyesight are failing you.
Just a hint of paranoia there, do you think? Well, whatever, both your memory and your eyesight are failing you.
Khandro - "... You list atrocities carried out in the name of the fanatically religious and imply that the other group is innocent of such action... Far more deaths have been carried out by... Joseph Stalin... Mao... Kim il Sung ..."
I would advise that you read what I actually wrote. I never said nor implied that atheists are incapable or wholly innocent of committing atrocities. What I did was list a number of things that modern religious fanatics do in the name of their religion. You have then listed a number of "atheists" (a matter which is in itself highly debatable in a number of cases) and claimed that the number of people who died under their leadership did so as a *direct result* of their non-belief in a supreme creator deity. Unfortunately, your claim is not supported by evidence.
Let's take your first example - Joseph Stalin. You're saying that 50 million people died under his leadership precisely because he was an atheist and not a deist. This is simply untrue. See this Wiki link for a more detailed explanation:
https:/
Summarising the above, the estimates for deaths under Stalin's rule range between 3 and 60 million. I think it's fair to say that this is an enormous range - but that's by the by. A huge amount of those deaths (from either the lower or upper estimate) come about from famine caused by a combination of natural disasters and the failure of 'collectivism' as a political tool - Lysenkoism playing part. Undoubtedly there was an element of religious (or rather non-religious) persecution under Stalin's rule but this pales into insignificance when compared to the utter failure of collectivism and his political 'purges' which had nothing whatsoever to do with religion or the lack of it.
The point I was making is that today, atheists do not murder deists because of their deist beliefs. Unfortunately, deists do murder atheists and other deists *precisely* because of their beliefs. The religious fundamentalists are killing people because they are either atheists or because they don't believe in their particular variant of "god".
Your attempted defence of deists at the expense of atheists is not unexpected. You seem to have a fundamental (pun intended) lack of understanding about what it is to have a complete lack of belief in "god". 'vulcan42' quotes, "... 'atheism' is a term that should not even exist. No one needs to identify himself as a 'non-astrologer' or a 'non-alchemist.'..."
Well said Mr Harris and well quoted Vulcan.
Merry Christmas everyone
:-)
I would advise that you read what I actually wrote. I never said nor implied that atheists are incapable or wholly innocent of committing atrocities. What I did was list a number of things that modern religious fanatics do in the name of their religion. You have then listed a number of "atheists" (a matter which is in itself highly debatable in a number of cases) and claimed that the number of people who died under their leadership did so as a *direct result* of their non-belief in a supreme creator deity. Unfortunately, your claim is not supported by evidence.
Let's take your first example - Joseph Stalin. You're saying that 50 million people died under his leadership precisely because he was an atheist and not a deist. This is simply untrue. See this Wiki link for a more detailed explanation:
https:/
Summarising the above, the estimates for deaths under Stalin's rule range between 3 and 60 million. I think it's fair to say that this is an enormous range - but that's by the by. A huge amount of those deaths (from either the lower or upper estimate) come about from famine caused by a combination of natural disasters and the failure of 'collectivism' as a political tool - Lysenkoism playing part. Undoubtedly there was an element of religious (or rather non-religious) persecution under Stalin's rule but this pales into insignificance when compared to the utter failure of collectivism and his political 'purges' which had nothing whatsoever to do with religion or the lack of it.
The point I was making is that today, atheists do not murder deists because of their deist beliefs. Unfortunately, deists do murder atheists and other deists *precisely* because of their beliefs. The religious fundamentalists are killing people because they are either atheists or because they don't believe in their particular variant of "god".
Your attempted defence of deists at the expense of atheists is not unexpected. You seem to have a fundamental (pun intended) lack of understanding about what it is to have a complete lack of belief in "god". 'vulcan42' quotes, "... 'atheism' is a term that should not even exist. No one needs to identify himself as a 'non-astrologer' or a 'non-alchemist.'..."
Well said Mr Harris and well quoted Vulcan.
Merry Christmas everyone
:-)
keyplus 90
\\ I have found atheists of AB to be the most arrogant, the most stubborn, the most intolerant and the most self-praising. Atheism’s root reason, argument, cause is that I know more than you do. //
Khandro
\\ naomi; Let me make this clear, I have said all I have to say about the odious S.Fry (which you have even quoted) so he and his man/wife can go to hell for all I care, and you may join him if you feel inclined. //
From our religious correspondents.
\\ I have found atheists of AB to be the most arrogant, the most stubborn, the most intolerant and the most self-praising. Atheism’s root reason, argument, cause is that I know more than you do. //
Khandro
\\ naomi; Let me make this clear, I have said all I have to say about the odious S.Fry (which you have even quoted) so he and his man/wife can go to hell for all I care, and you may join him if you feel inclined. //
From our religious correspondents.
v_e; According to the above 'Kahndro's Katagories' (13:43 Thu.) which I will re-state without the full definitions;
1. There is no God. (Stubborn, bovine)
2. I do not believe in God. (Intelligent, moderate)
3. Nothing is, or can be known of God. (Agnostic)
4. There May/ may not be a God, but if there is he can't help you. (Buddhist)
5. I believe in God. (Religious, moderate)
To these, I should have added, and to prove my point a sixth;
6.There is a God, if you don't believe me, I'll chop your head off (Fanatical)
You are in 2 (but only just!). Same goes for Birdie who hates all religions but I can't remember him pontifically stating position 1, though he is let down by his relishing the words of Sam Harris, a self-appointed "philosopher" with a PhD in neurology, a field in which he is not at all distinguished. Has experimented with extasy (wow!) which had profound psychological effects on him - well that's pretty obvious! His influences are Dawkins and Hitchins, - he was quick enough to see from their examples, that there was a lot more profit to be made from atheism than the professions.
Merry Christmas!
1. There is no God. (Stubborn, bovine)
2. I do not believe in God. (Intelligent, moderate)
3. Nothing is, or can be known of God. (Agnostic)
4. There May/ may not be a God, but if there is he can't help you. (Buddhist)
5. I believe in God. (Religious, moderate)
To these, I should have added, and to prove my point a sixth;
6.There is a God, if you don't believe me, I'll chop your head off (Fanatical)
You are in 2 (but only just!). Same goes for Birdie who hates all religions but I can't remember him pontifically stating position 1, though he is let down by his relishing the words of Sam Harris, a self-appointed "philosopher" with a PhD in neurology, a field in which he is not at all distinguished. Has experimented with extasy (wow!) which had profound psychological effects on him - well that's pretty obvious! His influences are Dawkins and Hitchins, - he was quick enough to see from their examples, that there was a lot more profit to be made from atheism than the professions.
Merry Christmas!
Latest Posts
ChatterBank2 mins ago
News7 mins ago
Crosswords7 mins ago
Booking Dot Com Different Colour.
Spam & Scams12 mins ago
Fined For Putting Envelope In Bin
News13 mins ago
