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Jesus, the cross and sin!
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When Jesus died on the cross, I believe the purpose was to die for our sins. Why was this necessary, as we are still held to account for our sins anyway before entering heaven....If we pass !
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?
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Waldo - I don't believe that a baby or any child is guilty of sin as they are not morally responsible, although kids have a sense of fair play of course.
At what age do people get to be responsible? I honestly don't know, but I suspect it is different for each individual.
As far as original sin is concerned, I believe that we inherit the capacity to sin, and that sin is therefore an inevitable consequence of being human in an imperfect world.
Monkeyeyes - We all get a free pass. All we have to do is repent and trust.
At what age do people get to be responsible? I honestly don't know, but I suspect it is different for each individual.
As far as original sin is concerned, I believe that we inherit the capacity to sin, and that sin is therefore an inevitable consequence of being human in an imperfect world.
Monkeyeyes - We all get a free pass. All we have to do is repent and trust.
Theland, two things:
If you think God's justice is perfect, I suggest you read the OT where you will meet many examples of it, such as the slaying of every man, woman, child and animal in a tribe that didn't worship him. There are many more.
Also, I am not guilty of sin. Sin is purely a religious concept and I am not religious. Ergo I can no more be considered to have sinned than to have broken a rule of my local golf club, of which I am not a member either. Some acts which the Church has decreed as sins are also illegal by the laws of the land or immoral by my own conscience; I try to avoid them for those reasons, not because of some god or other.
mallymooface, you are, of course, entitled to post what you like here within the normal rules of decency, but please give a little thought as to whether long sermons are in order. The purpose of the site is to ask questions, to reply to them, to comment on the answers and so on, not to publish mere propaganda. The converted do not need sermons and the rest of us find them tedious.
In that respect I hope you don't turn out to be as thick-skinned as Theland, who will obviously never learn that lesson.
PS: Are you going to answer my question on another site as to what evidence you have for God?
If you think God's justice is perfect, I suggest you read the OT where you will meet many examples of it, such as the slaying of every man, woman, child and animal in a tribe that didn't worship him. There are many more.
Also, I am not guilty of sin. Sin is purely a religious concept and I am not religious. Ergo I can no more be considered to have sinned than to have broken a rule of my local golf club, of which I am not a member either. Some acts which the Church has decreed as sins are also illegal by the laws of the land or immoral by my own conscience; I try to avoid them for those reasons, not because of some god or other.
mallymooface, you are, of course, entitled to post what you like here within the normal rules of decency, but please give a little thought as to whether long sermons are in order. The purpose of the site is to ask questions, to reply to them, to comment on the answers and so on, not to publish mere propaganda. The converted do not need sermons and the rest of us find them tedious.
In that respect I hope you don't turn out to be as thick-skinned as Theland, who will obviously never learn that lesson.
PS: Are you going to answer my question on another site as to what evidence you have for God?
mallymooface - Two points. One - I like your posts, so keep them coming. Two - I am not thick skinned, and sometimes some of the posts do make me feel rather uncomfortable to say the least.
P.S. Regarding the evidence for God, is there any evidence to say definitively that there is no God? Yes. that would make a good thread on its own.
P.S. Regarding the evidence for God, is there any evidence to say definitively that there is no God? Yes. that would make a good thread on its own.
I am a Muslim, Most of the people here know that. I do not believe in Christian logic about Jesus (pbuh) taking every one�s sins. First of all as others few here said. Would you kill your Son (even if I believe for argument sake that he was God's Son) so painfully only to give others relief.
Then that really mean now we can commit as many sins as we like without even thinking about any punishment. Then even Bible says that Jesus (pbuh) was sent for only people of Israel at that time only. So yes what about others?
Now I will tell you Islamic perspective.
Islam says that Jesus (pbuh) was only a Messenger of God who came to show people right way. As did all the other Messengers to the people of their time. This life is nothing but a test for the hereafter. If you do good you will be rewarded not me, If you do bad then you would be punished not me.
Then Christian idea about Adams (pbuh) sins are because of which we are suffering. Even that is wrong. Although again I believe Adam (pbuh) was the first human and a prophet. But he did not ask me before doing what he did. Any human court will not punish Son for the crime committed by father so who believes that we are sinful because of our forefather and are being or will be punished for that. Then Muslims believe that God forgave Adam (pbuh) after his repentance.
Then that really mean now we can commit as many sins as we like without even thinking about any punishment. Then even Bible says that Jesus (pbuh) was sent for only people of Israel at that time only. So yes what about others?
Now I will tell you Islamic perspective.
Islam says that Jesus (pbuh) was only a Messenger of God who came to show people right way. As did all the other Messengers to the people of their time. This life is nothing but a test for the hereafter. If you do good you will be rewarded not me, If you do bad then you would be punished not me.
Then Christian idea about Adams (pbuh) sins are because of which we are suffering. Even that is wrong. Although again I believe Adam (pbuh) was the first human and a prophet. But he did not ask me before doing what he did. Any human court will not punish Son for the crime committed by father so who believes that we are sinful because of our forefather and are being or will be punished for that. Then Muslims believe that God forgave Adam (pbuh) after his repentance.
Sorry Le Chat, for some reason I always thought you were Christian. I expect it's all so complex to ensure that the confused remain confused.
Mallymooface You cite things like depression and despair as being the works of Satan, but how do you explain terrible diseases, like Alzheimer's? Where is the justice in the complete and utter despair and misery that causes? God has a proven track record where his justice is concerned - and it's not good. Even though Theland keeps telling us God is perfect, he's quite clearly far from it. You only have to read the bible to discover that, but as we know, those of religion only read the bits that suit their purpose, which is why they say things like 'God is Love'. What a great lie it all is - and all viewed through rose coloured spectacles.
Religion causes far more damage than Atheism, because religion preys on the weak and vulnerable, and tinkers with the mind, leaving people obsessed, afraid, and completely devoid of the ability to rationalise.
And I don't believe anyone's yet explained why Jesus had to die such a terrible and agonising death in order to satisfy this sadistic God's will.
Chakka You're right about the sermons - and where is the other thread you're talking about? (PS. How's the quiz going?)
Mallymooface You cite things like depression and despair as being the works of Satan, but how do you explain terrible diseases, like Alzheimer's? Where is the justice in the complete and utter despair and misery that causes? God has a proven track record where his justice is concerned - and it's not good. Even though Theland keeps telling us God is perfect, he's quite clearly far from it. You only have to read the bible to discover that, but as we know, those of religion only read the bits that suit their purpose, which is why they say things like 'God is Love'. What a great lie it all is - and all viewed through rose coloured spectacles.
Religion causes far more damage than Atheism, because religion preys on the weak and vulnerable, and tinkers with the mind, leaving people obsessed, afraid, and completely devoid of the ability to rationalise.
And I don't believe anyone's yet explained why Jesus had to die such a terrible and agonising death in order to satisfy this sadistic God's will.
Chakka You're right about the sermons - and where is the other thread you're talking about? (PS. How's the quiz going?)
You have to accept the mystery of the Holy Trinity, where there is only one true living God, and He is god the Father, god the son, and god the Holy Spirit. One God, not three, but three persons of the one true God.
Therefore, Jesus was fully human and fully God. It was GOD who hung on that cross, in loving sacrifice for our sins, to satisfy His own perfect justice, so that we could put on His righteousness and be offered the free gift of forgiveness.
The wind has just snapped the pole that holds our washing line up so got to go and see to that. A satanic attack I wonder?
Therefore, Jesus was fully human and fully God. It was GOD who hung on that cross, in loving sacrifice for our sins, to satisfy His own perfect justice, so that we could put on His righteousness and be offered the free gift of forgiveness.
The wind has just snapped the pole that holds our washing line up so got to go and see to that. A satanic attack I wonder?
That doesn't explain why such a gruesome death was necessary - or any sort of death at all - and, moreover your explanation complicates matters even further. Jesus cried out to God from the cross - so if Jesus is God, he must have been talking to himself and asking himself for help. There's no logic in it whatsoever.
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