Jesus, the cross and sin!

[Le Chat]

When Jesus died on the cross, I believe the purpose was to die for our sins. Why was this necessary, as we are still held to account for our sins anyway before entering heaven....If we pass !
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?

[Aquagility]

If God were prepared to let someone else (let alone His own son!) carry the can for my sins, he would go well down in my estimation.

[naomi24]

Hello Le Chat, I can't see how the people who were already dead could possibly repent their sins and be saved through Jesus, so I've no idea what their situation would be in the life hereafter. Maybe they were given special dispensation.

If you don't mind me asking, if you don't understand why it was necessary for Jesus to die for our sins, why do you believe it? It makes no sense at all to me. Why would an almighty, supposedly loving God, who can apparently do anything he wants, demand such a terrible blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins? It seems horrendously cruel to me.

[Theland]

I would love to answer this, and will try to come back in the morning to do so.

[Theland]

Gods' justice is perfect, like Him, so He says what He means and means what He says.
He says the penalty for sin is death.
All men are guilty of sin and so under sentence of death.
That means we cannot do good works to atone for our sin, and so are doomed to suffer the penalty.
God knows we are helpless and so provided the solution Himself.
Jesus Christ was both God and Man, and completely without sin, and so He took upon Himself our sin, and took the punishment for it, and put upon us His righteousness, so that we could be offered the free gift of forgiveness.
All we have to do is trust Him and accept the free gift.
God does all of the work, we do nothing except trust in Him. That is why it is called, the Good News.

[jake-the-peg]

Are you suggesting that God was unable or unwilling to forgive before Jesus' sacrifice Theland?

[Theland]

Jake, God cannot go against His own nature.
Part of that nature is his perfect justice.
Therefore, God is unable to offer forgiveness to those unwilling to trust in Him.
God provided the ultimate sacrifice for all of those who put their trust in Him, prior to Christs death on the cross, and ever since.
Wizard, Abraham trusted in God, "to get it right," and God counted it as righteousness. It's all about trust.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Theland, could you please define whether God's justice is perfect because it meets an independant criteria of perfection or whether it is perfect because God's agency is intrinsically perfect?

[Le Chat]

Hi Naomi - I am agnostic myself but went to a school where religion was rammed down your throat every day, so I do know a fair amount about The Bible and its teachings. One thing is for sure, Christianity is hung up and even based on the concept of sin, so my question is purely out of interest, not out of any personal belief that I may have.
Theland - Why does it all have to be so complex? Why couldn't Jesus have been sent down by God to teach the people the error of their ways and about his love and then just leave without all the dramatics?
The thing is you won't get to heaven if you don't repent of your sin anyway - so what was the point? From your answer it would seem that He died, so that we could live after we died (in heaven presumably) So what about all the people who died before Jesus's arrival - who didn't know about this deal?
It makes no sense to me I'm sorry to say!

[mallymooface]

When Jesus died - he took away the sins of the world! That was every sin committed, before during and after Jesus death. In other words his death did one massive clean up operation on the world. I do not believe that our sins that we commit now have any eternal effect, just internal - what we do wrong, or fail to do right affects us and those round us now, today, in this life. For example getting angry and hurtful has a physical, emotional and psychological effect on me, and may also inflict damage on someone else, but then when I check my conscience and realise this is doing me and others no good and ask God to forgive me, he puts the balance back in order for me and helps me not mess up so bad in that way next time. It also should follow that I would want, if possible to put that right with whoever I have hurt or damaged in the process - the effect of being forgiven and forgiving. The only thing that is required of us now is to believe in the love of God and trust in it. If we refuse to do that, we shut the open door of heaven in our own face. But I believe that in the throes of death many people probably face the truth, accept it and so enter heaven because as the Bible says, For God so loved the world! That is everyone! Hell is a place for every evil under the sun, a place reserved for Satan and all his cronies like depression, despair, hopelessness, misery, and if you would prefer to accept that than goodness and love, well that ends up being your choice in the end.

[Beanmistriss]

Wasn't really much of a sacrafice though was it. "Ah boys, I give my only son for your sins etc etc". "Geez thanks god, thats smashing that is. Cheers". Then two weeks(?) later he's up and walking about again. Not much of a sacrafice if you then bring him back to life again is it. I'd have felt cheated.

[Theland]

Waldo - There is no independent criteria, so Gods' perfection is because God is by His nature, perfect.

[mallymooface]

Another thought Le Chat, forget what religion has taught you, just read what Jesus taught. He taught about how to live your life and it was all about doing for others and the reward for it. Any charity worker will tell you there is no greater buzz than doing something for someone else, any psychologist will tell you that doing something for someone else is as good a therapy as any inward looking stuff, and any true Christian will tell you it is far better to give than to recieve. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, yet on the same night that Judas did, Jesus got down and washed his feet ( a really stinking horrible task that nobody wanted to do) and then he shared supper with him. He died for Judas as much as he died for Peter and John and all the other disciples - I defy any Christian to say he didn't. Thats love. When my son gets mad and kicks in my doors and shouts abuse at me, I don't stop loving him. When he doesn't believe how much I love him, and says he hates me and doesn't want to know me. I don't stop loving him or believing in him. And if it came to a choice of his life or mine, no matter if it was him who caused that life or death situation to arise, I would give my life for his. That's love. And I will forgive him as many times as it takes to prove that love to him. And even if he never accepts that love, I will always love him anyway. That's love.
So I agree with Theland, God is love, and yes he is justice and all that, but remember, the greatest of these is love! Also remember that love never fails! So even though I agree that the wages of sin is death - the gift of God is eternal life, and the only prerequisite is belief.

[monkeyeyes]

Human beings have a limited life-span............and then they die.
In order to ensure that a genuinely sinless person (insert your own candidate here) can never exist, we have been said to have been born into sin.........so 'they' have us righ from the start..........

I can't quite remember the theory that was posited regarding people such as the Amazonian Indians. They would be the ones who died with sin and having not been washed in the blood of the lamb will never enter heaven.......can someone nudge me in the right direction ?

[Theland]

The Amazonian Indians, or any others that have not heard of Jesus Christ, still have Gods' morality written into their hearts, a standard by which they can make moral choices.
They can look at the universe and know that it was made by a maker, so they can acknowledge God and make right choices even if they have never met a Christian missionary.

[monkeyeyes]

And stil achieve the kingdom of heaven...............?

So if you live a moral life your chances of getting into heaven depend upon whether having heard of Jesus you accept him as your saviour, but if you haven't heard of him you get a 'free pass' ?

[WaldoMcFroog]

Theland, when you say that all men are guilty of sin, can you clarify whether this means a baby that dies after taking a single breath is still guilty of sin, and if you agree that this is the case, can you clarify whether you understand this baby's sin to be that of original sin?