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Jesus, the cross and sin!
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When Jesus died on the cross, I believe the purpose was to die for our sins. Why was this necessary, as we are still held to account for our sins anyway before entering heaven....If we pass !
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?
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To be honest. Even I have started feeling sorry for this god who ordinary people hanged onto a cross. How would this god solve the mystery when people ask how is he controlling this whole Universe, when he could not control a bunch of people who managed to hang him. No wonder people are becoming atheist if that is a kind of god they have to believe in. I am really worried Theland.
See you later all of you.
See you later all of you.
Thank you Theland and I apologize, Chakka, for "sermonising" - got carried away I guess. I can provide circumstantial evidence of God in my own life, and there is plenty of physical evidence of God, but conclusive proof?? Nah!! One day there will be conclusive proof to everyone, but today?? Nope, sorry. Can you provide conclusive proof there isn't? Or like me, just evidence??
Jesus had to die because if he didn't we would have to pay for our own sins and the cost of screwing up all the time was pain, death and/or humiliation.
The penalty for speeding is 60 quid and 3 points on your license. Imagine I break that law and then being issued with a penalty notice. Its no more than I deserve. But then the judge says OK you deserve the fine and the points, and I have issued the penalty, but cos I like you, Im going to pay it for you.
The penalty for speeding is 60 quid and 3 points on your license. Imagine I break that law and then being issued with a penalty notice. Its no more than I deserve. But then the judge says OK you deserve the fine and the points, and I have issued the penalty, but cos I like you, Im going to pay it for you.
The creation / evolution debate always come full circle to the big bang, the effect without a cause if we are to accept the atheist viewpoint. And then atheists talk about their experiences of this universe, yet none have ever experienced an affect without a cause! It doesn't make sense.
Somewhere along the line there has to be something that is its own cause and effect, and that something is what I call God.
Last nights Stephen Hawking programme ended with all of the professors including Hawking, simply speculating on the causes, and imagining a multiverse, like a block of Aero, each bubble its own universe. Any five year old could have come up with something to equal it, which was nothing more than the modern equivalent of turtles all the way down.
Somewhere along the line there has to be something that is its own cause and effect, and that something is what I call God.
Last nights Stephen Hawking programme ended with all of the professors including Hawking, simply speculating on the causes, and imagining a multiverse, like a block of Aero, each bubble its own universe. Any five year old could have come up with something to equal it, which was nothing more than the modern equivalent of turtles all the way down.
Someone once posed to me the question "What statement was God making to Man from the cross ?"
If we take the cry "My God why have you forsaken me ?" seriously, then we have Jesus, banged up there, bearing (in some way, whatever that means) all the badness of the world for all time on his own, and God has indeed disappeared, it makes for one heck of a thought, because it would be the first and only time that this ever happened to anybody, and at a very awkward moment - while picking up the sum total of the world's badness. I wonder if he knew in advance ? Who knows, but there was the intense pre-crucifixion agony in Gethsemane, so maybe he had a clue.
I don't think about 'sin' , I don't know what it means, much more important is to concentrate forward on the positive things.
If we take the cry "My God why have you forsaken me ?" seriously, then we have Jesus, banged up there, bearing (in some way, whatever that means) all the badness of the world for all time on his own, and God has indeed disappeared, it makes for one heck of a thought, because it would be the first and only time that this ever happened to anybody, and at a very awkward moment - while picking up the sum total of the world's badness. I wonder if he knew in advance ? Who knows, but there was the intense pre-crucifixion agony in Gethsemane, so maybe he had a clue.
I don't think about 'sin' , I don't know what it means, much more important is to concentrate forward on the positive things.
Theland, this is where the problem arises for me, and I can never come to terms with it. What was there before the big bang? Now, there may have been a creator - I doubt it - but for the sake of this debate we'll assume there was. However, that creator cannot have been your God, or Allah - who are one and the same. It had to be something much greater. Can you honestly believe (especially after watching the Stephen Hawking programmes), that something that created this vast universe would firstly, have created it all for us, and secondly would concern itself solely with the pettiness and the misdemeanours of the backward, uncivilised, creatures living on this tiny speck in a minor galaxy? There must be other planets that do in fact sustain intelligent life - the laws of average alone demand it - and if you get Chakka going on Occam's Razor - watch out! Surely that's just common sense. You have an ancient book, written by ancient and superstitious people, that contains tales of an incredibly cruel being, who taken on his merits, and with our knowledge of science today, wouldn't seem at all powerful to us - and, not only do you believe it, you excuse his many failings and tell us how wonderful he really was. Well, he wasn't - and if you believe what the bible tells you, you'll know he wasn't. Today we'd call him a psychopath - and send immediately for the men in white coats.
Continued
Continued
Continued
Added to that, you have a story about a man called Jesus, supposedly the son of this being, who was treated so appallingly that we all feel terribly sorry for him. At some time after Jesus' death, along comes another man who never met Jesus, but who decides, nevertheless, to become an evangelist, spreading a credo that Jesus, as far as we're aware, never preached - and, without a shred of evidence that he's telling you the truth, you believe him too. How could he have been telling the truth? Jesus was a devout Jew who had no intention leading people away from Judaism.
I believe there is a spiritual element to the universe, but it isn't to be found in the Bible or in the Koran. I don't know how the universe began, and neither does anyone else, but your God? No. Jesus dying for our sins? No. It's nothing but superstitious hocus-pocus manufactured by powerful men to keep you afraid and in your place - and they've succeeded. You may as well believe in Zeus, or Thor.
Added to that, you have a story about a man called Jesus, supposedly the son of this being, who was treated so appallingly that we all feel terribly sorry for him. At some time after Jesus' death, along comes another man who never met Jesus, but who decides, nevertheless, to become an evangelist, spreading a credo that Jesus, as far as we're aware, never preached - and, without a shred of evidence that he's telling you the truth, you believe him too. How could he have been telling the truth? Jesus was a devout Jew who had no intention leading people away from Judaism.
I believe there is a spiritual element to the universe, but it isn't to be found in the Bible or in the Koran. I don't know how the universe began, and neither does anyone else, but your God? No. Jesus dying for our sins? No. It's nothing but superstitious hocus-pocus manufactured by powerful men to keep you afraid and in your place - and they've succeeded. You may as well believe in Zeus, or Thor.
So what if Jesus hadn't died on the cross then? Would that mean (to Christians) that you die and that is the end of it...no eternal life luxuriating in heaven?
All the trillions of people who died before Jesus' crucifixion; did they just die with no heaven alternative, or did they just hang around in limbo until Jesus was born and went through all that he did?
I still don't get the point of Jesus being killed in that manner and for what? Couldn't God have just said "I take on all your sin as a favour to all those who believe in me and follow my rules?" I think it would have been just as effective in the long term without the death scene.
All the trillions of people who died before Jesus' crucifixion; did they just die with no heaven alternative, or did they just hang around in limbo until Jesus was born and went through all that he did?
I still don't get the point of Jesus being killed in that manner and for what? Couldn't God have just said "I take on all your sin as a favour to all those who believe in me and follow my rules?" I think it would have been just as effective in the long term without the death scene.
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Waldo - The big bang, or creation event or whatever it was and whatever we choose to call it, was the beginning of all things, and is a separate issue to the evolution debate as far as I understand it.
Wizard - Yes God is all powerful, but has integrity, therefore there are things that He cannot do, such as go against His own nature.
That is why His perfect justice had to be satisfied. If He let us off the hook for our sin, then His justice would be meaningless.
The atoning death of Jesus satisfied that perfect justice, and so forgiveness is available for any who wish to trust in Jesus as their saviour.
Wizard - Yes God is all powerful, but has integrity, therefore there are things that He cannot do, such as go against His own nature.
That is why His perfect justice had to be satisfied. If He let us off the hook for our sin, then His justice would be meaningless.
The atoning death of Jesus satisfied that perfect justice, and so forgiveness is available for any who wish to trust in Jesus as their saviour.
I'm with Le Chat here. I don't see the point either, when it could all have been made so plain, and simple enough for us to understand. And there's no doubt Wiz has definitely spotted a discrepancy.
To say that God cannot go against his own nature is worrying, Theland - bearing in mind what his nature entails.
To say that God cannot go against his own nature is worrying, Theland - bearing in mind what his nature entails.
Naomi - At least we both believe in a first cause. That cause is my God.
How you can say that there must be other than my God, who is incidentally omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, is puzzling. What other qualities could a god have who is greater than my God?
Yes, God could have snapped His fingers and created a world entirely different to the one in which we live, but chose to create this one, using these methods, and using the birth and nurturing of the Jews to become a nation and a light to the nations.
God has dealt harshly with his chosen people, and with those who persecute them. This is done to demonstrate Gods utter holiness, a concept we can hardly imagine.
God is infinite, and has created an infinite universe, and why not? Should He limit His creative powers just so we can accept Him on the question of scale?
(continued)
How you can say that there must be other than my God, who is incidentally omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, is puzzling. What other qualities could a god have who is greater than my God?
Yes, God could have snapped His fingers and created a world entirely different to the one in which we live, but chose to create this one, using these methods, and using the birth and nurturing of the Jews to become a nation and a light to the nations.
God has dealt harshly with his chosen people, and with those who persecute them. This is done to demonstrate Gods utter holiness, a concept we can hardly imagine.
God is infinite, and has created an infinite universe, and why not? Should He limit His creative powers just so we can accept Him on the question of scale?
(continued)
(continued)
Yes the Bible is an ancient book, and yes, there was a lot of superstition about I dare say when it was written. But it was written by divine revelation and has stood the test of time, being more influential in our world than any other so called holy writings.
But some of the things that impress me the most about the Bible are the prophecies concerning the Jews.
To say that these prophecies are accurate is not fanciful, as everything written about the Jews has either come true or is in the process of coming true.
Many books have been written on the Bible prophecies concerning Jerusalem and the Jews, and the evidence for the accuracy of these prophecies is impressive.
So where did these prophecies come from? Mere superstition? I don't think so. I honestly believe they came by divine revelation, and are further proof of the existence of God.
I'll post again soon to cover any points that I have overlooked in your posts above.
Yes the Bible is an ancient book, and yes, there was a lot of superstition about I dare say when it was written. But it was written by divine revelation and has stood the test of time, being more influential in our world than any other so called holy writings.
But some of the things that impress me the most about the Bible are the prophecies concerning the Jews.
To say that these prophecies are accurate is not fanciful, as everything written about the Jews has either come true or is in the process of coming true.
Many books have been written on the Bible prophecies concerning Jerusalem and the Jews, and the evidence for the accuracy of these prophecies is impressive.
So where did these prophecies come from? Mere superstition? I don't think so. I honestly believe they came by divine revelation, and are further proof of the existence of God.
I'll post again soon to cover any points that I have overlooked in your posts above.
Theland, well omnipresent he certainly wasn't since, according to Ezekiel, he came hurtling out of the sky from a definite direction - the north I believe - and was accompanied by an awful din.
Omniscient he certainly wasn't, since when Adam and Eve hid themselves, he had to go in search of them, and was obliged to call out to ask them where they were.
Omnipresent, the previous answer negates that.
As for the biblical prophesies, don't you think you interpret them to fit? A bit like the Nostradamus followers. For a start the prediction that Christians normally attribute to the birth of Jesus says that the Messiah would be born of the house of David. Of course, it could fit if Jesus had been Joseph's son, but since he's reputed to be God's son, then it cannot possibly be accurate.
I didn't say I believe in the first cause. I said we would use that for the sake of this debate. I've no idea what the first cause was, but most definitely would not attribute it to your God.
Going to bed now. Goodnight, sleep tight, and happy dreams.
Omniscient he certainly wasn't, since when Adam and Eve hid themselves, he had to go in search of them, and was obliged to call out to ask them where they were.
Omnipresent, the previous answer negates that.
As for the biblical prophesies, don't you think you interpret them to fit? A bit like the Nostradamus followers. For a start the prediction that Christians normally attribute to the birth of Jesus says that the Messiah would be born of the house of David. Of course, it could fit if Jesus had been Joseph's son, but since he's reputed to be God's son, then it cannot possibly be accurate.
I didn't say I believe in the first cause. I said we would use that for the sake of this debate. I've no idea what the first cause was, but most definitely would not attribute it to your God.
Going to bed now. Goodnight, sleep tight, and happy dreams.
God is omnipresent and if He came from a certain direction, that is for our benefit not His, as He manifested Himself in a form that could be experienced and understood.
God is omniscient but Adam laid the ground rules by hiding, so God treated him accordingly. "Where are you?"
Like for like.
I don't fit Biblical prophecies to fit the events of history, a bit like Nostradamus, the events fit the prophecies, the most dramatic being the Jews back in their own land after 2000 years.
Joseph was recognised as being Jesus' earthly father by His contemporaries, so was born of the house of David.
You say you have no idea as to a first cause, yet you say you know what was not the cause. I'd say you had some inside information, to be able to dismiss one of the possibilities, possible for you but certain for me.
God is omniscient but Adam laid the ground rules by hiding, so God treated him accordingly. "Where are you?"
Like for like.
I don't fit Biblical prophecies to fit the events of history, a bit like Nostradamus, the events fit the prophecies, the most dramatic being the Jews back in their own land after 2000 years.
Joseph was recognised as being Jesus' earthly father by His contemporaries, so was born of the house of David.
You say you have no idea as to a first cause, yet you say you know what was not the cause. I'd say you had some inside information, to be able to dismiss one of the possibilities, possible for you but certain for me.
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