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Jews in Britain
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I know this a bit on the poitical side, but i'd like to know, if you don't mind, what is your conception of Jews in this country?.
I ask this, because some of the replies and posts in the news section, were most definately anti Jewish, as well as being anti Israeli,
With whats happening, and peoples perspectives, I can understand the anti Israeli part, but I find it hard to understand the spite that came out, (only from a few), against Jews.
I ask this, because some of the replies and posts in the news section, were most definately anti Jewish, as well as being anti Israeli,
With whats happening, and peoples perspectives, I can understand the anti Israeli part, but I find it hard to understand the spite that came out, (only from a few), against Jews.
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Waldo, they don't 'praise' Israel at Bar Mitzvah's and weddings - they propose a toast to Israel, the country. As Lonnie says, Jews feel that they are simply guests in any country but Israel. Wherever they are in the world, they see that as their true homeland.
Gourmander, Confused again, eh? ;o/
Weeal, so you've seen something of it. Sorry, I hadn't realised that.
Gourmander, Confused again, eh? ;o/
Weeal, so you've seen something of it. Sorry, I hadn't realised that.
yes, I know sara3, but after all the years i've been on here, i'd not come accross stuff like this before, its possible I took it more personally than I should have done, but apart from being directed at me, some were also generalised to encompass Jews as a whole.
Thanks for that Gormless, and I totally agree with you.
weeal, True, its not an understandable thing, I think on the whole, it may be, that the more religious Jews are very secular, but thats just one possibility of many, so I won't go into it right now,
but you've given me a thought for another thread.
Good one ghetto poet, i've never heard of him, but I understand what he said.
Very true Octavius, and thanks.
Hi naomi, many thanks for your post, much appreciated,
Toasts, The Queen, because we are showing loyalty to the country we live in, and Israel, because t is, and always will be, regardless of where we live, the religious home of Jews, also, having a Jewish state/homeland, gives Jews in the Diaspora status, and is one of the reasons persecutions have diminished world wide, I cite Entebbe as an example.
I understand completely what your saying about the drinks, as you know, jews keep meat and milk seperate, so if you'd had meat, they would have been using cups reserved only for after meat, with practicing Jews, milk and meat, never the twain shall meet,
cont...
Thanks for that Gormless, and I totally agree with you.
weeal, True, its not an understandable thing, I think on the whole, it may be, that the more religious Jews are very secular, but thats just one possibility of many, so I won't go into it right now,
but you've given me a thought for another thread.
Good one ghetto poet, i've never heard of him, but I understand what he said.
Very true Octavius, and thanks.
Hi naomi, many thanks for your post, much appreciated,
Toasts, The Queen, because we are showing loyalty to the country we live in, and Israel, because t is, and always will be, regardless of where we live, the religious home of Jews, also, having a Jewish state/homeland, gives Jews in the Diaspora status, and is one of the reasons persecutions have diminished world wide, I cite Entebbe as an example.
I understand completely what your saying about the drinks, as you know, jews keep meat and milk seperate, so if you'd had meat, they would have been using cups reserved only for after meat, with practicing Jews, milk and meat, never the twain shall meet,
cont...
...cont
I'm sorry for your experience in Israel, i'm afraid I never looked at the reception Gentiles may get there, it shouldn't happen to visitors no matter which country.
jake-the-peg, i'll quote just one here, if you want links to them all, i'll sort them out and post them, I don't remeber who it was, but 'I don't like four-by twos', sticks in my mind, this person didn't say Jews, but he/she didn't need to.
'I do wonder though if increasingly aggressive actions by Israel may have unfortunate spin offs in rising anti-semite feelings.
Any muslim will tell you that it's easy for an entire people to get tarred with an extremist brush'.
This part of your post, I think is absolutely correct.
I'm afraid I have to leave this now, but i'll return later this evening.
I'm sorry for your experience in Israel, i'm afraid I never looked at the reception Gentiles may get there, it shouldn't happen to visitors no matter which country.
jake-the-peg, i'll quote just one here, if you want links to them all, i'll sort them out and post them, I don't remeber who it was, but 'I don't like four-by twos', sticks in my mind, this person didn't say Jews, but he/she didn't need to.
'I do wonder though if increasingly aggressive actions by Israel may have unfortunate spin offs in rising anti-semite feelings.
Any muslim will tell you that it's easy for an entire people to get tarred with an extremist brush'.
This part of your post, I think is absolutely correct.
I'm afraid I have to leave this now, but i'll return later this evening.
Yes, I know about the milk/meat rule Lonnie. I was joking. Outside of a restaurant, I�ve never seen so much cutlery and crockery or so many pots and pans in my life as my friends possess!
No need to apologise. I�ve met all sorts on my travels and nothing much bothers me. I suppose before I ever went to Israel, my expectations of Jewish people had been formed by my experiences of meeting them in England and in the USA, and in other parts of the world. Israeli Jews are different, that�s for sure, and I am just surprised they appear to make no effort whatsoever to be friendlier to foreigners. To be perfectly honest, I find the Arabs there far more affable.
No need to apologise. I�ve met all sorts on my travels and nothing much bothers me. I suppose before I ever went to Israel, my expectations of Jewish people had been formed by my experiences of meeting them in England and in the USA, and in other parts of the world. Israeli Jews are different, that�s for sure, and I am just surprised they appear to make no effort whatsoever to be friendlier to foreigners. To be perfectly honest, I find the Arabs there far more affable.
If it's any sign, I'm over 60 now and lived and practised in London for decades, dealing with all manner of people (in criminal law) and I honestly can't remember the last time I saw or heard the words 'four by two' or '***' being used.Both were in common use by my father's generation and in my first twenty or so years.
On the other hand I did hear what were essentially anti-semitic statements from a middle aged Chelsea fan, referring to Tottenham Hotspur.He was going on about how 'they' all ate bagels and kosher food at half-time and making other 'jokes' of this nature. I hadn't the heart to enquire what was so non-Jewish about Chelsea. At the time we had an Israeli manager, at least one Israeli in the squad, and the whole club was owned by a man called Abramovich, a name which did give a clue as to his religious ancestry ! He apparently hadn't noticed this Jewish connection!
On the other hand I did hear what were essentially anti-semitic statements from a middle aged Chelsea fan, referring to Tottenham Hotspur.He was going on about how 'they' all ate bagels and kosher food at half-time and making other 'jokes' of this nature. I hadn't the heart to enquire what was so non-Jewish about Chelsea. At the time we had an Israeli manager, at least one Israeli in the squad, and the whole club was owned by a man called Abramovich, a name which did give a clue as to his religious ancestry ! He apparently hadn't noticed this Jewish connection!
Quinlad, I understand the comparison, but I've already said I understand the Bias against Israel, even if I don't agree with it, but that has nothing to do with the question.
DrFilth, I don't like the way you post, I don't think you listen to reason, or are prepared to understand the other side, however, you have never said anything Anti Jewish, anti Israel, yes, but not anti jewish, and there is a difference.
As for your name, no I didn't, and I couldn't care less where it came from.
keyplus, I think naomi has answered perfectly reasonably, and said what she feels, why not stop baiting her, it lowers the tone, and naomi is one of the best debators on AB. Now, this post can be linked to whats happening in Gaza, although thats not what its about.
Regarding Jews supporting Israel, I was wondering after what you said, if any Muslims are supporting Hamas, I thought they were, but maybe I was mistaken, perhaps you can enlighten me?.
Well said 123everton, thats what i've been trying to put accross.
...cont
DrFilth, I don't like the way you post, I don't think you listen to reason, or are prepared to understand the other side, however, you have never said anything Anti Jewish, anti Israel, yes, but not anti jewish, and there is a difference.
As for your name, no I didn't, and I couldn't care less where it came from.
keyplus, I think naomi has answered perfectly reasonably, and said what she feels, why not stop baiting her, it lowers the tone, and naomi is one of the best debators on AB. Now, this post can be linked to whats happening in Gaza, although thats not what its about.
Regarding Jews supporting Israel, I was wondering after what you said, if any Muslims are supporting Hamas, I thought they were, but maybe I was mistaken, perhaps you can enlighten me?.
Well said 123everton, thats what i've been trying to put accross.
...cont
...cont fredpuli47, you've raised a good point, There are some Religious Jews in Israel, who don't recognise that Jews outside their particular sect are Jews, and another sect who live there, don't even recognise the State of Israel, because the Messiah has not come, but they get all the benefits the other religious sects get.
Thanks everyone for replying, as I said, I possibly took those replies a bit more personally than I should, but thats my nature sometimes.
Regarding Keyplus and naomi, I wrote a huge reply earlier, and couldn't post it.
Thanks everyone for replying, as I said, I possibly took those replies a bit more personally than I should, but thats my nature sometimes.
Regarding Keyplus and naomi, I wrote a huge reply earlier, and couldn't post it.
I have been to Israel many times, all over in fact, and have never received anything other than a very warm and inviting welcome. I am still in contact many of the people I have met along the way. I don�t believe I have experienced any of the negativity that Naomi has had when in Israel so I guess it may be affected by many specific factors and cannot be a generalisation.
I would not hold much complaint against Jews for toasting Israel. Whenever we have a family gathering or a party, somebody always raises a toast to Ireland and the auld country. I don�t think anything untoward is meant, despite living in England for most of their adult lives. If however, it was something that was done during the �troubles� and London b,ombings I could see why this would be a concern to someone English, and even though some of my uncles undoubtedly had some anti-British feelings and possibly other rebel connections, generally a toast to Ireland was toasting a memory of days gone by, to mothers and fathers left back in the Emerald Isle.
I would not hold much complaint against Jews for toasting Israel. Whenever we have a family gathering or a party, somebody always raises a toast to Ireland and the auld country. I don�t think anything untoward is meant, despite living in England for most of their adult lives. If however, it was something that was done during the �troubles� and London b,ombings I could see why this would be a concern to someone English, and even though some of my uncles undoubtedly had some anti-British feelings and possibly other rebel connections, generally a toast to Ireland was toasting a memory of days gone by, to mothers and fathers left back in the Emerald Isle.
Lonnie, Everton is right. Some people do have a problem with Israel, but that doesn't mean they have a problem with Jews. I can understand your feelings though. I remember my friend's little girl collecting door to door from her neighbours for some worthy cause, and when she went to the home of a Christian family, was told 'Go away - you killed Jesus'. She was only about 8, and came home in floods of tears. There's no accounting for stupid and irrational minds.
Octavius, please don't misunderstand. I'm not complaining - just offering my observations. I don't think we can compare the the Jews toasts to Israel to toasts to 'the old country'. The Jews do it for very different reasons.
Octavius, please don't misunderstand. I'm not complaining - just offering my observations. I don't think we can compare the the Jews toasts to Israel to toasts to 'the old country'. The Jews do it for very different reasons.
I'm not dismissing it - and I never have dismissed it - and I have been in places where the Irish have toasted the republic, and I understand why they do it. I'm simply saying that the Jews do it for a different reason. In effect they are not toasting the past, and all that held, they are toasting the future.
Yes, I suppose at the time they could also have been toasting the future of the Republic of Ireland as well, a future without British interference and anti-English, anti-Thatcher sentiment. I guess, whilst I understood that uncle�s John and Chris were Irish and lived in north London and had some strange goings on that my dad would never speak about, I was too young to realise where, when all the time they were singing Irish rebel songs and discussing politics, their sentiments really were. They weren�t in the provo�s, just knew a lot of people that allegedly might have been.
I don�t see any reason why people should not wish for a free-state nationality. I suppose what actions they are supporting in order to achieve that aim are where it becomes unpalatable.
I don�t see any reason why people should not wish for a free-state nationality. I suppose what actions they are supporting in order to achieve that aim are where it becomes unpalatable.
Lonnie i am lucky that i can in this country have an open mind. I can listen to reason you on the other hand only see things one way.
anyone says anything about israel and they are anti israeli.
this 73 year old is not so lucky
Zeev Sternhell is careful about his choice of words when he unhesitatingly calls the pipe bomb which exploded outside his front door last week "an act of Jewish terrorism."
As a Holocaust survivor orphaned by the age of seven and a combat veteran of Israel's wars, Professor Sternhell, 73, who was lucky to have only been injured in the leg by flying shrapnel from the bomb, is "horrified" not for himself but because it might have hit his wife, daughter his grandchildren on one of their sleepovers, or their neighbours. "It was a terror act because they couldn't know who would have been hit
when israel gives the land back and stops killing people i may then go back to speaking up for israel
you want to ask yourself why a white english person would speak up for a muslim controlled land ?
as for the lawyer who heard the words 4 by 2 , we only have his word for this. i think he is anti chelsea.
anti chelsea , ring a bell ?
::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
anyone says anything about israel and they are anti israeli.
this 73 year old is not so lucky
Zeev Sternhell is careful about his choice of words when he unhesitatingly calls the pipe bomb which exploded outside his front door last week "an act of Jewish terrorism."
As a Holocaust survivor orphaned by the age of seven and a combat veteran of Israel's wars, Professor Sternhell, 73, who was lucky to have only been injured in the leg by flying shrapnel from the bomb, is "horrified" not for himself but because it might have hit his wife, daughter his grandchildren on one of their sleepovers, or their neighbours. "It was a terror act because they couldn't know who would have been hit
when israel gives the land back and stops killing people i may then go back to speaking up for israel
you want to ask yourself why a white english person would speak up for a muslim controlled land ?
as for the lawyer who heard the words 4 by 2 , we only have his word for this. i think he is anti chelsea.
anti chelsea , ring a bell ?
::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dr Filth, I'd have you know I'm a Chelsea season ticket holder ! Granted any, or all, of us could be anti-Chelsea some days, the way the team has performed of late, but still.
Quite like the idea that the word of a lawyer is to be doubted, though. Lawyers themselves prefer to think that the only lies they utter are lies of the client, which they are under a duty to repeat on the client's behalf !
No, my , possibly optimistic, post was that I've not noticed the old abusive terms for Jews being used in speech in modern times, when years ago they were very common. Doesn't prove a lot, because some people might still have the same attitude but have cleaned up their language so it's not so blatantly offensive.However, I still think that progress has been made.
The same applies to racism at Chelsea. When the team first had a black player in the squad, and he was called on to the field as a sub, an elderly man behind me yelled out "There's an effing [n-word] playing for Chelsea. Good God!" Now that's something the like of which I haven't, thankfully, heard since in years at the Bridge. I know we have laws and practice about racism,which can be enforced at grounds, but I honestly don't think they are required there.
Quite like the idea that the word of a lawyer is to be doubted, though. Lawyers themselves prefer to think that the only lies they utter are lies of the client, which they are under a duty to repeat on the client's behalf !
No, my , possibly optimistic, post was that I've not noticed the old abusive terms for Jews being used in speech in modern times, when years ago they were very common. Doesn't prove a lot, because some people might still have the same attitude but have cleaned up their language so it's not so blatantly offensive.However, I still think that progress has been made.
The same applies to racism at Chelsea. When the team first had a black player in the squad, and he was called on to the field as a sub, an elderly man behind me yelled out "There's an effing [n-word] playing for Chelsea. Good God!" Now that's something the like of which I haven't, thankfully, heard since in years at the Bridge. I know we have laws and practice about racism,which can be enforced at grounds, but I honestly don't think they are required there.
I must admit that I shied away from a previous post on Gaza because it was clearly an outburst that was not going to listen to a reasoned debate or another point of view.
I wish there was an easy answer to this, I could bottle it and make a fortune. Unfortunately anti Americanism boils over into other spheres. Its just a pity that the alternative is not considered
I wish there was an easy answer to this, I could bottle it and make a fortune. Unfortunately anti Americanism boils over into other spheres. Its just a pity that the alternative is not considered
Rosetta, I don't know if your American or not, but for myself, i'm very pro America, always have been, i'm not blind to their shortcomings, bad Presidents etc, but without America, this country would have been taken over, if not by the Germans, then the Russians, and Europe as a whole, owes America a lot.
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