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The difference between religion and spirituality
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Leading on from Theland's question below, it seems to me that believers confuse man's innate spirituality with religion. Even the most ardent atheist is capable of experiencing spirituality, but he doesn't acquaint it with the God of the Arbrahamic faiths, so why do believers feel it necessary to do so? Is it simply that they have to justify it by putting a name to something they can't explain - regardless of the culprit's appalling demands, threats, and disgraceful track record?
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Ankou, yes, I'm perfectly prepared to believe that spirituality, whatever it might be, is not attached solely to monotheistic religion - but what it does mean is all a bit vague and hard to debate. As Quinlad pointed out, it's sometimes used by celebrities to denote non-specific depth of character, and that's probably good news, because even if I can't be a celebrity like George Michael, I can be spiritual like him.
http://www.google.co....Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
http://www.google.co....Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
Jno, Theland put his personal life into the public domain and, I note, didn't object to the point I made. I didn't mention his issues to make light of them or because I imagine such problems can't affect anyone of any persuasion or that they affect their beliefs. In fact, it was that very point I was making.
Waldo, yes, I'm aware the details came from him originally. But I don't think it's right of you to bring them up again, even if he doesn't object; I believe all mentions of the matter should come from him and him alone.
Incidentally, a slight setback for religion here, with God behaving in a very mysterious way indeed
http://www.guardian.c...d-pope-parkinsons-ill
Incidentally, a slight setback for religion here, with God behaving in a very mysterious way indeed
http://www.guardian.c...d-pope-parkinsons-ill
I think I agree with many posters that we will succeed only in stirring up muddy waters here until there is a consensus on the meaning of both of the terms, "Religion" & "Spiritually" which is coincidently the subject of this topic as well as this thread and therefore perhaps long overdue in spite of the fact that both terms have been debated extensively befores and little agreement has been reached.
Nevertheless, I too am not one to let a minor technicality like a lack of definition restrain me from getting down and dirty and stirring up a little mud of my own in a most likely vain attempt to clear the waters. Perhaps the process of attempting to derive definitions is in itself enough to spark some interesting lively and with any luck illuminating if not endless debate, or if you prefer, war on words.
R&S are concepts of consciousness. Both arise from out of and are features confined (apart from associated practices) to processes of consciousness which like anything else can be communicated meaningfully only on a conceptual basis. Apart from conscious deliberation R&S have no referents in external reality but are nonetheless aspects crucial to understanding in light of their profound consequences in that they play a large role in determining our choices and actions.
Nevertheless, I too am not one to let a minor technicality like a lack of definition restrain me from getting down and dirty and stirring up a little mud of my own in a most likely vain attempt to clear the waters. Perhaps the process of attempting to derive definitions is in itself enough to spark some interesting lively and with any luck illuminating if not endless debate, or if you prefer, war on words.
R&S are concepts of consciousness. Both arise from out of and are features confined (apart from associated practices) to processes of consciousness which like anything else can be communicated meaningfully only on a conceptual basis. Apart from conscious deliberation R&S have no referents in external reality but are nonetheless aspects crucial to understanding in light of their profound consequences in that they play a large role in determining our choices and actions.
R&S are not just simple ideas but wide abstractions that have evolved in complexity parallel to but not necessarily in concert with the ability to reason. For the sake of sorting out the confusion that presently exists regarding these concepts it might be helpful to examine the beginnings of this evolutionary process by examining the roots from which these concepts grew to their present day complexity except that they took root very early on in our evolutionary development and are therefore largely lost in obscurity. Perhaps the futility of such a pursuit is fitting to any meaningful definitions we might derive, for what has proven to be more futile than attempts to derive meaningful definitions for "Religion" or "Spiritually"?
It appears that any determination of the difference between these two concepts, if indeed they qualify as such, must be made on the basis of how at any given point in time one resolves to define them, assuming that is at all possible in what seems at best to be a very gray area.
A very broad issue indeed. But then I have never been one to pretend I understand how a woman thinks. For the most part I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut (with obvious exceptions) and if not, learn to deal as best I can, with the consequences.
My god, what have I gotten myself into now?!
It appears that any determination of the difference between these two concepts, if indeed they qualify as such, must be made on the basis of how at any given point in time one resolves to define them, assuming that is at all possible in what seems at best to be a very gray area.
A very broad issue indeed. But then I have never been one to pretend I understand how a woman thinks. For the most part I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut (with obvious exceptions) and if not, learn to deal as best I can, with the consequences.
My god, what have I gotten myself into now?!
jno, //isn't 'there is nothing to prove' what believers say when you invite them to demonstrate God's existence?//
Yes, it is what they often say - but it isn't true, since religion teaches God's existence as fact, and fact demands proof.
//Why should it be an adequate answer to a question about where spirit is to be found? //
What proof are you looking for? Proof of love, of pride, say, in a child's achievements, of happiness, of disappointment, of trust, of a sense of awe, of compassion, of fear, of sadness, of hope? What?
By the way, with regard to discussions concerning Theland, which he appears to have no problem with, no one is obliged to contribute to any discussion they find distasteful, but that doesn't entitled them to stifle debate for others simply because they, personally, disapprove.
Ankou, Jake has given the definition you're after - and I don't believe in ghosts in a 'spiritual' sense.
mibs, ha ha! Who knows?
Yes, it is what they often say - but it isn't true, since religion teaches God's existence as fact, and fact demands proof.
//Why should it be an adequate answer to a question about where spirit is to be found? //
What proof are you looking for? Proof of love, of pride, say, in a child's achievements, of happiness, of disappointment, of trust, of a sense of awe, of compassion, of fear, of sadness, of hope? What?
By the way, with regard to discussions concerning Theland, which he appears to have no problem with, no one is obliged to contribute to any discussion they find distasteful, but that doesn't entitled them to stifle debate for others simply because they, personally, disapprove.
Ankou, Jake has given the definition you're after - and I don't believe in ghosts in a 'spiritual' sense.
mibs, ha ha! Who knows?
I have never understood what 'spirituality' means and have never been convinced that it means anything - as, I think, the above discussion shows.
Our elegant and flexible English language is quite capable of expressing, with scientific precision, poetry or both, everything we can know and imagine about the universe and life, the wonders and mysteries of it all, the things that stun us with their beauty and sometimes their obvious truth. And there are very many words that we can use to describe these feelings and emotions without descending into vagueness and obfuscation.
'Spirituality' is a weasel word, designed to give a vague idea of something or other, but don't ask what. Which is, of course, why religionists are so fond of it.
Our elegant and flexible English language is quite capable of expressing, with scientific precision, poetry or both, everything we can know and imagine about the universe and life, the wonders and mysteries of it all, the things that stun us with their beauty and sometimes their obvious truth. And there are very many words that we can use to describe these feelings and emotions without descending into vagueness and obfuscation.
'Spirituality' is a weasel word, designed to give a vague idea of something or other, but don't ask what. Which is, of course, why religionists are so fond of it.
jno - Thank you for your concern about my possible reaction to Waldos' comments about my personal problems. However, It is entirely legitimate of Waldo, and anybody else for that matter, to comment on them as part of their contribution to the debate.
The lovely thing about such regular contributors to the R & S threads, is that they are all totally respectful to my and others feelings, and even when commenting on my apparent failure to embrace logic and reason, and using my personal negative experiences to illustrate a point, it is done so as friend to friend, and in such a way that I raise no objection whatsoever.
As a further example, Wiz and Nims have not yet referred to my affinity for wearing knitted thongs, but doubtless will do so when it supports their arguments in this debate.
The lovely thing about such regular contributors to the R & S threads, is that they are all totally respectful to my and others feelings, and even when commenting on my apparent failure to embrace logic and reason, and using my personal negative experiences to illustrate a point, it is done so as friend to friend, and in such a way that I raise no objection whatsoever.
As a further example, Wiz and Nims have not yet referred to my affinity for wearing knitted thongs, but doubtless will do so when it supports their arguments in this debate.
Chakka, yes our language is indeed elegant and flexible, which is precisely why it contains the word 'spirituality'. Rather than being a 'weasel' word, 'spirituality' is the only one we have to illustrate what we are talking about here. How, for example, would we otherwise describe someone who is 'low in spirit'? I presume we all know what that means, but I can't think of another word or phrase that adequately describes the condition. 'Depressed' isn't right, neither is 'Sad', or 'Disheartened'. None of those words go nearly far enough to describe the complete and devastating hopelessness of being 'low in spirit' when even physical pain and mental anguish become irrelevant to the sufferer.
(By the way, how are you doing with the quiz?).
Ankou, You're mistaken. I haven't been attempting to relay my 'personal' experience, but I have given a clear indication of my definition of the word. Perhaps reading the posts again will enlighten you.
Oh yes Theland, that thong of yours is, and always was, a real fashion statement. Bring it on! ....Err...... or perhaps not. :o)
(By the way, how are you doing with the quiz?).
Ankou, You're mistaken. I haven't been attempting to relay my 'personal' experience, but I have given a clear indication of my definition of the word. Perhaps reading the posts again will enlighten you.
Oh yes Theland, that thong of yours is, and always was, a real fashion statement. Bring it on! ....Err...... or perhaps not. :o)
Theland, Due to ongoing renovations, in the interest of security please submit any further inquiries regarding sanctuary to [email protected]
naomi, 'the 'spirit' in 'low in spirit' has nothing to do with the vagueness of 'spirituality'. 'Spirit', there is a very human thing, meaning one's general feelings, one's current outlook on life. 'Spirituality' is normally used as a catch-all for things non-human and often religious.
(Looked at the quiz, as usual, for the first couple of days only and did about 40. It's not finishing the 100 which will be the problem, as you know, but not making one of those silly mistakes!)
(Looked at the quiz, as usual, for the first couple of days only and did about 40. It's not finishing the 100 which will be the problem, as you know, but not making one of those silly mistakes!)
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