FAO Keyplus

[sherminator]

no baiting no arguments wanted! Just genuinely interested in what your thoughts are on drawing muhammed.

Someone else (who is muslin) has said that it is not forbidden to draw him?

can you let me know your views and if there is a general consensus on what the rules are

thank you

[keyplus90]

I believe your question has two aspects. First of all drawing or depicting Muhammad (pbuh) by any Muslim and in that case it is not allowed. There are few reasons behind that. First of all no one at present has seen him so the chances are that any sort of drawing will make people believe that “he looked like this”. Best example is of Jesus (pbuh) as according to movies, portraits etc he usually has blue eyes and a very fair complexion and so on. And that makes him more from somewhere Europe than where he really is from. Then portraits or drawings can become like idols and people may start worshiping that and that is totally against Islamic teachings. Hidus are typical example of that. So it is not allowed to draw Muhammad (pbuh) any other prophet and even their companions in Islam. However in few Muslim countries (Only Iran I can think of) they do draw Muhammad’s (pbuh) FEW companions. Perhaps you could ask if you know that “someone” who is Muslim and say there is nothing wrong that where did he get that. And I would seriously be interested to find that out.

Now towards the second part. Drawing of Muhammad (pbuh) by Non Muslims and I believe that is the main reason behind your question. First of all I may ask “why someone would like to draw him?”. And usually these are controversial kind of cartoons etc. Even if they draw him in good sense (which is very unlikely) still Muslims would rather if they don’t due to the above reason. Problem is that few Non Muslims do not understand that Muslims respect Muhammad (pbuh) more than any other human being. Now they may not agree with that but that is the way Islam is. So for that reason I believe that even freedom of speech should have a limit otherwise just like human rights it will start biting us back.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Given what you say above, do you equally condemn any Muslim who passes around anti-Semitic cartoons portraying Abraham or David in a derogatory manner or anti-holocaust nonsense, such as those seen in Egypt?

(I think - you'll be surprised at this - that your reasoning is highly flawed. You essentially posit a situtation where Freedom of Speach should be curtailed on demand. Since you are no more able to prove Allah is true than a Christian can God, a Hindu Vishnu or a beardy-weirdy Giai. Clearly we cannot rely on evidence to support whose demands for censorship we obey, and thus we must kowtow to all.

The inevitable effect of such a situation is to restrict free speech even when all sides with an exclusivist belief system must necessarily agree only one side can be correct. But I digress.)

[keyplus90]

As sherminator asked that question for information sake so I answered that to the best of my ability. Now to Waldo question,

////Given what you say above, do you equally condemn any Muslim who passes around anti-Semitic cartoons portraying Abraham or David in a derogatory manner or anti-holocaust nonsense, such as those seen in Egypt?///

First of all if any Muslim draw any cartoon of Abraham and David (pbuta)(or Ibrahim and Dawood as Muslims know them) then he is not following his own religion. To believe in and respect all 25 prophets named in Quran Plus all those who we do not know about, is part of the basic faith for any Muslim. Now as far as Holocaust is concerned then they should not make fun of that in derogatory or any other manner. I can speak only for myself to say that although I do not believe about the holocaust as we are told to believe but I have no problem with that either just like so many other things where I may not agree with but I should not say anything against. Unless I am in a situation where if I do not agree or explain why I do not agree then that might be taken as my agreement. But still not in bad words as I believe freedom of speech should not be used as freedom to insult.

[naomi24]

Waldo, Oh please - digress on!!

Keyplus, //So for that reason I believe that even freedom of speech should have a limit otherwise just like human rights it will start biting us back. //

I sincerely hope it does start biting you back. What a cheek!!

[naomi24]

Actually Keyplus, I'd like to come back on that. You mention the Human Rights Act, but that applies only in the countries that sanction it, so why expect - or demand - that the laws of Islamic countries apply to the rest of the world? And don’t talk to me about insults. I don’t see you complaining when Muslims living in this country conduct their disgusting protests - with no comebacks whatsoever.

[237SJ]

Keyplus, is it true that Muslims recognise Jesus because he was a prophet and they recognise all prophets (unlike some other religions)?

[flobadob]

Following from what keyplus mentioned about images of Jesus. I think I read once that the standard image that we have of Jesus today is based on a portrait of a prince or a king from the middle ages.

[tamborine]

How can anyone draw something they've never seen? Similarly if a drawing has the word muhammid beside it doesn't prove it is him.

eg - I have just typed the name so is this script him ? The whole is hyperthetical. However, if you draw a pig/dog/monkey/teddy bear & call it mohamid your post maybe reported as offensive and be barred......we'll see ?

[sherminator]

Hi Keyplus sorry this has taken so long!
first point- this was a muslim who said that but not sure if referring to non muslims being ok or whether he just gave up arguing!!

the 2nd point is more important!
You are absolutely correct in that I have never felt the inclination to draw Muhammed.....up until the point when someone said that I wasnt allowed to!!!
its that basic human psychology test of 'dont step on the grass!' I want to rebel! As soon as you say im not allowed to do something trivial where there is no real consequence then I want to do it even more!!!
and no one can stop me in this country as I have the right to free speech! am afraid its you who has the problem because you cant do anything about it! thats what we have thought hard for; the ability to do and say as we want!
(I still haven't drawn him but prop will at some point!)

[Ankou]

doing something out of guilty pleasure is not really a crime.

was that the point of your q.......... ?

[sherminator]

TO ankou doing something that doesnt harm anyone else and is none of their bsiness certainly isnt a crime!

what was the point of your q?

[Ankou]

i was just wondering thats all. you seem to like keyplus.

[sherminator]

yes? yes i do?? He gives me insights into a culture that I wouldn't normally get....It just so happens I disagree with nearly everything that his culture is about but its still interesting to learn about other people

Why do i feel like im under spotlight for asking an innocent question?

[Ankou]

not at all. as you say 'you have thought for; the ability to do and say as [you] want'

[naomi24]

Shermi, //Why do i feel like im under spotlight for asking an innocent question?//

Because some people have nothing interesting to say unless they pinch it from the internet and pretend it's all their own work. Not sure whether the example above results from stupidity, sour grapes, or jealousy - but whatever it is, it's clear to anyone with an iota of intelligence that nonsense like that adds nothing to the debate so it's not worth worrying about. ;o)

Oh, and by the way, Ankou, for future reference you might like to note that Goddess is spelt with a double 'd'. ;o)

On with the discussion.

[Ankou]

haup the cavlary has arrived.
my godess doesnt have a double d. she's very flat chested.

the rules as far as it goes are that half of all muslims think drawing depictions of muhammed is disallowed, and half of them say it is ok to do providing it is done sympathetically. i think that they all agree that non-muslims are not permitted to indulge even if its done sympathetically.

[chakka35]

Without the freedom to insult there is no freedom of speech.

I don't make a habit of insulting people but I reserve the absolute right to do so if I wish. No-one has the right not to be insulted.

[naomi24]

Yes, indeed - and as for your reference to your 'godess', it seems you are even more confused than you appear to be, Ankou.

//i think that they all agree that non-muslims are not permitted to indulge even if its done sympathetically. //

Not permitted? By whom? Why does Islam feel it has the right to deny the rest of the world 'permission' to do anything - and more to the point, why does the rest of the world conform? It's time it started saying 'no'.

[Ankou]

the braying masses of course. like the people saying today that rooney will lose us the world cup because he might use an expletive.

no doubt burning effigies will ensue. and they aint even muslims.