Richard Dawkins - Faith School Menace?

[naomi24]

Did anyone else see this on Wednesday night? One in three of our schools are now faith schools funded by the tax payer, but in the area of religious education not only do some of them teach the subject for up to four times longer each week than other schools, they are left to do their own thing and have their own regulators. Additionally, the Islamic school taught creationism and a version of evolution but left the students to make up their own minds on which was true. Needless to say when asked all, without exception, said they believed the Koran‘s version - and alarmingly their Science teacher said the same. Can you imagine the ‘make your own mind up' scenario being applied to any other subject - and that being acceptable to any school that cares about the standard of education it offers, or more particularly to a government that sets a national curriculum? Religion demands that we close our eyes to its failings - and because it demands it, we do it regardless of the effect it has on future generations.

Your thoughts?

[keyplus90]

This has been proved, that has been demolished, we have established this, I have shown to the world truth, once again (to satisfy our own self) we have denied people who know what they are talking about..................... Hang on I was not supposed to say the last bit.

I have seen few thick and self acclaimed people in my life but....

[Nadis]

.....nothing compares 2u.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, yep, clearly end of story. ;o)

Roy, discussions here often drift away from the original question, but I'll be happy if someone has new thoughts to contribute that will bring the thread back on track.

[naomi24]

Roy, there is no possibility of either side in this debate conceding defeat because the religious cannot accept that their doctrine is in error, and the atheists would be lying if they said that the evidence of science is wrong. You're telling us that arguments are futile, but I beg to differ. Religion is an insult to the intellect, it's a blight on this world, and it deserves to be challenged in the strongest possible terms at every opportunity. If these discussions go some way to exposing the greatest lie ever told, then in my opinion it's a job well done.

[RoyH]

Hi Naomi - just noticed your post here. Isn't that a bit illogical - you concede that neither side will ever admit defeat, but you're going to carry on anyway. So the tit-for-tat wrangling goes on, even though there is no prospect of victory. Gandhi said "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and he had a good point. I also believe that religions are fundamentally flawed, but I'm not vitriolic about it, and I don't feel threatened by their existence. I think what you're really saying is that contesting with religious people makes you, and those who agree with you, feel better. The only people who might be open to being convinced are the agnostics, who are half-way there anyway - and attacking those who are half-way to being persuaded, seems irrational. - Roy :-}

[naomi24]

Roy, I'm afraid your understanding of the debates in R&S appears to be sadly lacking. This is not an eye for an eye. Nothing so petty - at least not on the part of the atheists here. You see, in my opinion it is not irrational, but morally right, to attack any philosophy that openly encourages the subjugation of women, or one that rather than promote the use of condoms accepts babies being born with horrendous diseases. I care about humanity - and for that reason I will continue to oppose religion with reasoned argument at every opportunity. The funny thing is I object and you call me vitriolic. You on the other hand are quite happy to sit back and say nothing in opposition to the appalling tenets of these medieval belief systems - and you advertise yourself as a humanist. Are you quite sure you know which of us is the humanist?

[Nadis]

Reason or the version most sane people morally purvey is great to spread the word to those obviously lacking in that area but argument after argument has done nothing to change keyplus' views.
Yes all that is unjust in most peoples eyes should be challenged but what's the point if the receiver is devoid of any morals.
I have seen many posts from you Naomi and others trying to inform keyplus of the wrongs regarding his practices, the koran and many other failings in logic or sense and apart from you gaining more knowledge of how daft he is and the odd insight into his twisted version of his faith, nothing has changed.
I suppose it makes for good reading witnessing how many times you can counter attack daftness with sense but I don't understand the compulsion on your part.
Keyplus sits with his fishing line waiting for the rest of you to bite.
I am not a sympathiser with him, either. After reading numerous posts of gibberish, his posts make my eyes cloud over.

[naomi24]

Well, what with you Nadis, and Roy, we might just as well leave R&S to the religionists to spread their bile without opposition regardless of whom it taints.

On the other hand it might just be that some people enjoy these debates, so why not let them get on with it? Afer all, no one is obliged to contribute.

[Nadis]

Has it tainted you?
And I read from many after trying to make keyplus see sense, saying why doesn't he give it up and stop talking nonsense but it is clear the part of the debate you want him to stop because it is illogical is the part of the debate you love to counter attack and the circle continues.
Keyplus arrives, you try to make him see sense or counter his foolishness, he doesn't go away and continues and then you ask why doesn't he stop? knowing the more you try the longer he stays. You then complain that all he does is spread the bad side of his faith which is true and then when he doesn't stop you mention it would be better if he'd go away.
He hasn't changed, you wont change his views.
I know no one is obliged to contribute and I think you above most people are one of the best contributors (no I'm not creepin) on this site and always have been.
I'll not bother you anymore.

[Joolee1980]

People with thick-headedly entrenched views are not going to suddenly cave and say "actually, you're right" but there's still more value in debating it than just saying "Ah, leave it".

[Nadis]

I don't think any of the religionists really give a hoot about Answerbank unless it's met with opposition by a non-believer posing a question about their faith.
Dear Theland spent most of his time trying to defend himself from an onslaught of questions and he did a brilliant job but with the likes of keyplus the bricks his goat is standing on are the same ones you are banging your head against trying to make him see the light.
But you enjoy the debate so that's great!

[Nadis]

You are absolutely right Joolee1980, If the thread suddenly takes a turn and the debate raises more questions then that is the best thing about AB but too often with keyplus the value/s are lost on him because it just doesn't sink in and he'll return time and time again with twaddle.
But it's none of my business.
What am I bothered about?

[LazyGun]

It is, to me, a scary thought that in this day and age, schools can brand themselves as islamic, or christian, or jewish.Such branding is self-evidently culturally devisive, and only serves to pass on to yet another generation the outdated and irrational beliefs of medieval times.
More worryingly,such schools can shelter some of their teaching from ofsted under the umbrella of religious and/or cultural teachings, where ofsted have no authority
There is evidence to show that there are some teachers who will teach science in order to comply with the national curriculum, but will then tell their charges that such scientific facts can be ignored, since the word of god is paramount.
It deeply concerns me that a science teacher at a major islamic school in the UK cannot even begin to answer a basic and flawed misunderstanding of evolution, evidenced by an inability to answer the question "If we are descended from apes, how come their are still apes?"
It horrifies me that the head of the same school, on camera, calmly asserts that the theory of evolution is "only a theory" and that no one has ever shown him any evidence to support its truth.
And most of all, what really horrifies me is this coalition goverments headlong charge into "deregulation" of the educational system, and giving a free hand to interested groups to set up their own schools. Richard Dawkins is right to be concerned... we all should be.

[Nadis]

The movie "Inherit The Wind" comes to mind.
Evolution vs Creation.

[RoyH]

Naomi, I know you enjoy a lively debate, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I do too, but please don't patronise me with your "sadly lacking" comments and your cynical misrepresentation of my views. What right have you to assume you know my mind? If you check back on my postings you will see that, far from sitting back and saying nothing, I have utterly condemned religious terrorism and such atrocities. I don't feel the need to keep repeating myself or to prove my atheist credentials to you. I admit I haven't yet mentioned condoms or the subjugation of women, but they didn't come up in the areas we were discussing. But you can't deduce from that that I approve of all those appalling evils that you list. That really is sloppy logic! As for advertising myself as a humanist, I thought I'd made it clear that I don't like labels, but humanism is the one that I most identify with. Don't try to teach me about morals. I should imagine that I'm as moral a person as you are. Do you really believe that all your contention and fractious argument and posturing will make the slightest difference and (for example) stop the Pope from banning condoms? Get real Naomi. It isn't going to happen.

[naomi24]

Roy, When you declare that the arguments in R&S are conducted with the intention of gaining an eye for an eye you very clearly misunderstand and under-estimate the intentions of those who for very good reasons, and despite objections, continue to voice their opposition to religion. My intention was not to patronise you. I hope I don't do that to anyone.

LazyGun, Your post is a very welcome breath of fresh air. I agree with you 100%. Well said.

[keyplus90]

Nadis – I do not agree with your assessments either. Someone has to just go back and see past threads that its me who actually in the end decided to ignore people like Naomi and still that gives few people reason to believe that they have won the battle. I do not take this website and these debates as matter of life and death or end of the world. But for few people perhaps it is completely opposite. You are calling me illogical but clearly you can’t see people here not even accepting scientific evidence by reputable scientists only because they are saying something these people do not want to know.

In the end if someone does not agree with my posts then all that person has to do is ignore. But it is very difficult for few or perhaps impossible. And I know very well why.

[Nadis]

keyplus, I have no problem ignoring your posts, not because you are right(?) or even wrong. I just look at them and think.............why should I bother. Because whether someone thinks they will make you see sense in their eyes is clearly a waste of energy, time and as you put it, some have got better things to do.
But good luck, put another brick under the goat.