Spectator N0. 2679 : Choc-A-Block By Doc
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Best Before Dates-Holy Communion wafer
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Are there best before dates on Holy Communion wafer packets? Catholics believe in transubstantiation i.e that really IS the flesh and blood of Christ (not just a representation of it). So is it 2000 year old Jesus's flesh they are eating, or current Jesus's flesh? Is it Jesus's flesh when it's being made in the factory? Or when the priest blesses it? How does the priest know he is really doing that properly? Can paedophile priest's have the power to change the wafers into real flesh (if so, how come? as they're sinners, not real priests) So the people who've been taking communion from sinners, haven't really recieved Communion afterall. Can you get drunk on a bottle of Communion wine, if so, how? As it's really blood isn't it?
I expect 95% of Catholics don't even know they're supposed to believe it ACTUALLY IS the body and blood of Christ.
I expect 95% of Catholics don't even know they're supposed to believe it ACTUALLY IS the body and blood of Christ.
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I personally am not interested in converting people to whatever. If they're happy with their religion, then why not stick with it. I asked the questions because I personally find it all weird. I wanted to understand something about the issues, But now I don't. But thank you everyone for your answers and for taking the trouble to send the replies.
So, what's for supper then? . . . http://www.cartoonsto...a/lowres/gwan238l.jpg
Oh dear ... all that hulabaloo Notafish ... and you obviously don't understand transubstantiation yourself.
The Catholic chruch would readily admit that, if you take consecrated bread and wine to a laboratory and analyse it with every technique known to mankind, the results will show that they are just bread and wine.
Now pick a human being .. any one will do. Analyse that person. Find out the exact quantities of every chemical, mineral, metal etc. that make up that person. Now mix those exact same quantities in laboratory and you get ... a mixture of chemicals, minerals, metals etc. NOT a duplicate of the person you analysed.
What's missing is the substance of the original person. It might be easier to think of a felt hat here .. it has a shape, a colour, a degree of softness but those things are not the hat itself. They are just the outward appearance of the hat.
Consecrated bread and wine retain their outward appearance, but their substance is changed to that of Christ. what you consume in communion is, physically, bread and wine, but in substance it is the body and blood of Christ.
And yes, this was primary school stuff, not to that level naturally, but it was taught at primary school hwne I was a lad.
The Catholic chruch would readily admit that, if you take consecrated bread and wine to a laboratory and analyse it with every technique known to mankind, the results will show that they are just bread and wine.
Now pick a human being .. any one will do. Analyse that person. Find out the exact quantities of every chemical, mineral, metal etc. that make up that person. Now mix those exact same quantities in laboratory and you get ... a mixture of chemicals, minerals, metals etc. NOT a duplicate of the person you analysed.
What's missing is the substance of the original person. It might be easier to think of a felt hat here .. it has a shape, a colour, a degree of softness but those things are not the hat itself. They are just the outward appearance of the hat.
Consecrated bread and wine retain their outward appearance, but their substance is changed to that of Christ. what you consume in communion is, physically, bread and wine, but in substance it is the body and blood of Christ.
And yes, this was primary school stuff, not to that level naturally, but it was taught at primary school hwne I was a lad.
The correct word is not APPEARANCES, it's ACCIDENTS. Appeances is used because it's a lot easier to understand than accidents.
Accidents, in philosophy, is the term used to cover the attributes of something - it's look, texture, shape, feel, smell. The attributes are those things we percieve with our senses and are separate from substance which is the thing itself.
Remember the Magritte painting of a pipe ?
At consecration, the substance of the bread and wine are changed, but the accidents .. the attributes of them remain unchanged.
Or to put it another way .. drink a bottle of blood and you'll probably throw up. Drink a bottle of consecrated wine and you'll get drunk or a bit tipsy depending on your tolerance, but you will still have consumed a bottle of the substance of the blood of Christ.
Or if you prefer it from the Catholic Encyclopaedia "Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this, that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood." Please note the use of the word hidden in that.
Accidents, in philosophy, is the term used to cover the attributes of something - it's look, texture, shape, feel, smell. The attributes are those things we percieve with our senses and are separate from substance which is the thing itself.
Remember the Magritte painting of a pipe ?
At consecration, the substance of the bread and wine are changed, but the accidents .. the attributes of them remain unchanged.
Or to put it another way .. drink a bottle of blood and you'll probably throw up. Drink a bottle of consecrated wine and you'll get drunk or a bit tipsy depending on your tolerance, but you will still have consumed a bottle of the substance of the blood of Christ.
Or if you prefer it from the Catholic Encyclopaedia "Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this, that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood." Please note the use of the word hidden in that.
In other words, "The emperor has no clothes." . . . http://img210.imagesh...edemperor922055or.jpg
I had this discussion with my wife some time ago - brought up a Catholic in Ireland.
She was under the (I believe) false impression that this wasn't really Catholic teaching any more.
It seems to me from the Catholics that I know that they are masters in ignoring the bit's of Catholicism they don't like.
The Contraceptive thing being another prime example
Purgatory being another
I think Limbo was officially done away with a few years back wasn't it.
Not sure how many buy into the assumption of Mary or the special status of priests
Personally I think they're all slowly evolving into protestants
She was under the (I believe) false impression that this wasn't really Catholic teaching any more.
It seems to me from the Catholics that I know that they are masters in ignoring the bit's of Catholicism they don't like.
The Contraceptive thing being another prime example
Purgatory being another
I think Limbo was officially done away with a few years back wasn't it.
Not sure how many buy into the assumption of Mary or the special status of priests
Personally I think they're all slowly evolving into protestants
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