ChatterBank0 min ago
Are Brexiters Worried That What They Voted For...ain't Ever Gonna Happen?
Seriously...as someone who was 'soft remain', I can see that the there is absolutely no way that the man/woman in the street is going to be allowed to dictate the financial security of the UK.
So...what do you think we will actually get from Brexit?
At best, a watered down version of what he majority voted for?
A hideous compromise?
At some point in the future, are we going to have to face the fact that Brexit cannot work, especially when a whole load of the Brexit camp will feel the reality of what they've done?
So...what do you think we will actually get from Brexit?
At best, a watered down version of what he majority voted for?
A hideous compromise?
At some point in the future, are we going to have to face the fact that Brexit cannot work, especially when a whole load of the Brexit camp will feel the reality of what they've done?
Answers
Many of the Brexit slogans and aspirations involved the word "back" "Country back", "Soveignty back", etc. Generally "back" is not a good direction to go in, as Labour is finding now,having voted for an unreconstruc
19:00 Wed 29th Jun 2016
Acknowledging the sacrifices of our past citizens in old conflicts is a decent thing to do; but dragging up old conflicts into a discussion on present day relations seems a little inappropriate. We aren't at war with anyone in Europe now. Hopefully all countries has learnt from the past and will avoid it in the future.
“New Judge I see your point but I think very few people who voted in or out realise just how huge an amount of money we make from this 'Euro' trading”
As far as the “passporting” issue of euro transactions goes (on which you seem so hung up) I suggest you read Article 46 (or it may be 47, I cannot remember and cannot bothered to look it up) of the Lisbon Treaty. This says that non-EU countries can conduct such transactions so long as their regulation is as good as that which covers the EU. There is no doubt that the EU finance industry will meet the criteria and the Treaty provisions will be subject of negotiation (that word again).
Sorry Eddie, but your increasing pessimism – along with the increasing absurdity of some others - has really determined that I can no longer participate in these debates (even after a night’s kip). I’ll see how the questions go but if they continue in the current vein I may decline to partake. The truth is that nobody knows how these negotiations will pan out (and they will be negotiations, not impositions). And of course they haven’t even begun. It is absolutely absurd for Remainers to suggest that because the (alleged) consequences of leaving are (allegedly) too horrendous to contemplate that a new vote must be held or last week’s vote should simply be ignored or some other action other than leaving the EU should be contemplated. The consequences were well outlined and the Remain camp had more resources than the Leavers to make their points. They failed to convince enough people and that’s that.
This country cannot continue to be held to ransom by foreigners dictating what it can and cannot do. That’s what this is all about. The single market (which, incidentally, does not cover financial products) is a great idea, but it does not particular work too well for the UK. It comes with too many strings and it cannot be maintained at any price.
As far as the “passporting” issue of euro transactions goes (on which you seem so hung up) I suggest you read Article 46 (or it may be 47, I cannot remember and cannot bothered to look it up) of the Lisbon Treaty. This says that non-EU countries can conduct such transactions so long as their regulation is as good as that which covers the EU. There is no doubt that the EU finance industry will meet the criteria and the Treaty provisions will be subject of negotiation (that word again).
Sorry Eddie, but your increasing pessimism – along with the increasing absurdity of some others - has really determined that I can no longer participate in these debates (even after a night’s kip). I’ll see how the questions go but if they continue in the current vein I may decline to partake. The truth is that nobody knows how these negotiations will pan out (and they will be negotiations, not impositions). And of course they haven’t even begun. It is absolutely absurd for Remainers to suggest that because the (alleged) consequences of leaving are (allegedly) too horrendous to contemplate that a new vote must be held or last week’s vote should simply be ignored or some other action other than leaving the EU should be contemplated. The consequences were well outlined and the Remain camp had more resources than the Leavers to make their points. They failed to convince enough people and that’s that.
This country cannot continue to be held to ransom by foreigners dictating what it can and cannot do. That’s what this is all about. The single market (which, incidentally, does not cover financial products) is a great idea, but it does not particular work too well for the UK. It comes with too many strings and it cannot be maintained at any price.
I've just typed all this into another thread, so I'll paste it in here;
The value of sovereignty cannot be measured by any economist's formula. Adam Smith, the father of economics, first observed that the prosperity of a country is decided by whether it keeps its 'laws and institutions' healthy.
This basic insight explains why nations thrive or fail and has been the great secret of British success: intellectual, artistic, scientific and industrial.
The principles of the magna Carta and achievements of the glorious revolution led to our emergence as a world power.
No one - economist, politician or mystic - knows what tumult we can expect in the next 15 years. But we do know that whatever happens, Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws. The history of the last two centuries can be summed up in two words: democracy matters.
The Spectator adapted.
The value of sovereignty cannot be measured by any economist's formula. Adam Smith, the father of economics, first observed that the prosperity of a country is decided by whether it keeps its 'laws and institutions' healthy.
This basic insight explains why nations thrive or fail and has been the great secret of British success: intellectual, artistic, scientific and industrial.
The principles of the magna Carta and achievements of the glorious revolution led to our emergence as a world power.
No one - economist, politician or mystic - knows what tumult we can expect in the next 15 years. But we do know that whatever happens, Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws. The history of the last two centuries can be summed up in two words: democracy matters.
The Spectator adapted.
I'm almost certain that what we are going to get is a bodge. It will be Brexit, but with some serious caveats.
...because the terms of the Referendum question were so broad, that it leaves politicians with the mandate 'to interpret'.
There are going to be some very disappointed people one way or the other, once Article 50 is set in motion.
...because the terms of the Referendum question were so broad, that it leaves politicians with the mandate 'to interpret'.
There are going to be some very disappointed people one way or the other, once Article 50 is set in motion.
If some of the negotiators make serious caveats that ruin the point of leaving, rather than just reasonable compromises, then their political life and the success of their party will be severely damaged in both the short and medium term. There are some things that clearly can not be agreed to (unless one had a hidden agenda to ruin the UK/EU deal and claim they knew it wouldn't work all along). The ructions they'd cause here may well lead to civil unrest too.
-Talbot-
I am fully confident that we have politicians who have the talent to ensure that the transition will be handled with skill and tact, ensuring that the impact to the economy is minimised.
Parliament is stuffed full of this kind of politi...
...oh.
But honestly, it's not that I'm disappointed. Well, no where NEAR as disappointed as some people I know. It's just that I reckon a lot of people are celebrating prematurely. I would be very surprised if the negotiation process (think about it - what are we going to be negotiating) will tie us to some elements of the EU that will really anger Brexit.
We will see.
I am fully confident that we have politicians who have the talent to ensure that the transition will be handled with skill and tact, ensuring that the impact to the economy is minimised.
Parliament is stuffed full of this kind of politi...
...oh.
But honestly, it's not that I'm disappointed. Well, no where NEAR as disappointed as some people I know. It's just that I reckon a lot of people are celebrating prematurely. I would be very surprised if the negotiation process (think about it - what are we going to be negotiating) will tie us to some elements of the EU that will really anger Brexit.
We will see.
".because the terms of the Referendum question were so broad,"
It was "Do you want the UK to remain as a member or leave the EU?" Nothing broad about it at all. A clear and concise question with only two possible answers.
What we are talking about on these seemingly interminable (and very premature) threads are not terms for our leaving. They are terms for our future relationship with the EU after we have left. There are no terms to be imposed on our leavingand nobody seems to be suggesting that our leaving is conditional on successful negotiations.
As I said in a very early question (last Friday or Saturday, I think) we could leave tomorrow. The EU could do nothing about it (except perhaps take action through the European Court of Justice under whose jurisdiction we would no longer fall). But we won't for two reasons; (1) The UK does not renege on its treaty obligations and we are bound by Lisbon to giver proper notice and (2) It is in nobody’s interest for us to chuck our toys from the pram and stomp away in a huff.
I agree, sp, there will be compromises to be reached. But I don’t believe any government will compromise on the key issues that made 52% of the electorate vote to leave. The worst that the EU can do is deny us future access to their single market (and consequently them to ours). That would a severe blow (to both sides) but business continues with or without government co-operation. But if it means we must go down that road then we must. Khandro’s excellent post sums up the UK’s position quite clearly. Democracy matters. It is the EU’s democratic deficit, which that wretched, sclerotic institution simply fails to even acknowledge, let alone address, that has caused all this.
It was "Do you want the UK to remain as a member or leave the EU?" Nothing broad about it at all. A clear and concise question with only two possible answers.
What we are talking about on these seemingly interminable (and very premature) threads are not terms for our leaving. They are terms for our future relationship with the EU after we have left. There are no terms to be imposed on our leavingand nobody seems to be suggesting that our leaving is conditional on successful negotiations.
As I said in a very early question (last Friday or Saturday, I think) we could leave tomorrow. The EU could do nothing about it (except perhaps take action through the European Court of Justice under whose jurisdiction we would no longer fall). But we won't for two reasons; (1) The UK does not renege on its treaty obligations and we are bound by Lisbon to giver proper notice and (2) It is in nobody’s interest for us to chuck our toys from the pram and stomp away in a huff.
I agree, sp, there will be compromises to be reached. But I don’t believe any government will compromise on the key issues that made 52% of the electorate vote to leave. The worst that the EU can do is deny us future access to their single market (and consequently them to ours). That would a severe blow (to both sides) but business continues with or without government co-operation. But if it means we must go down that road then we must. Khandro’s excellent post sums up the UK’s position quite clearly. Democracy matters. It is the EU’s democratic deficit, which that wretched, sclerotic institution simply fails to even acknowledge, let alone address, that has caused all this.
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