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Exciting Isn't It?
Can't wait for the next Brexit surprise....what could it be?
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Naomi that ill-advised quote from Juncker came BEFORE the referendum when I think we can agree a lot of extreme things were said by many.
The truth is the UK has been indulged for years by the EU with exemptions and special treatment which I quite accept probably largely happened due to us being a “big player”. They were still indulgences tho.
Since the referendum, when the PM laid out a series of red lines in advance, there has been a process on all sides of trying to deal with the issues the worst of which of course is the land border with the EU in Ireland. A solution was proposed by the EU which Mrs May had to pull out of mid-meeting because Arlene told her she had to. The backstop was the solution to that and - apparently - is the stumbling block now.
But it’s only an issue because we have a hung parliament and she is in hock to the DUP. Arlene Foster and co would have been swatted away at the time with barely a word otherwise.
Tho I agree that there would probably always have been an issue with her own MPs as the govt majority was never that great.
The truth is the UK has been indulged for years by the EU with exemptions and special treatment which I quite accept probably largely happened due to us being a “big player”. They were still indulgences tho.
Since the referendum, when the PM laid out a series of red lines in advance, there has been a process on all sides of trying to deal with the issues the worst of which of course is the land border with the EU in Ireland. A solution was proposed by the EU which Mrs May had to pull out of mid-meeting because Arlene told her she had to. The backstop was the solution to that and - apparently - is the stumbling block now.
But it’s only an issue because we have a hung parliament and she is in hock to the DUP. Arlene Foster and co would have been swatted away at the time with barely a word otherwise.
Tho I agree that there would probably always have been an issue with her own MPs as the govt majority was never that great.
Ichkeria, //that ill-advised quote from Juncker came BEFORE the referendum when I think we can agree a lot of extreme things were said by many. //
Even worse! It demonstrates the extent of their animosity towards us leaving the EU even before the event - and I can't say I've noticed an improvement since - but a bit more up to date is Tusk's statement that there will be a special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit with no plan to make it work. Work for whom? The EU? Complacent they are not!
Even worse! It demonstrates the extent of their animosity towards us leaving the EU even before the event - and I can't say I've noticed an improvement since - but a bit more up to date is Tusk's statement that there will be a special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit with no plan to make it work. Work for whom? The EU? Complacent they are not!
Saying there was a special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit was also an ill-advised thing to say - publicly - but understandable in that it reflected exactly what I was referring to earlier: the years of struggle on all sides to make the best of something that was not properly thought through by its proponents.
It’s Dominic Cummings waking up in the night with his “take back control” slogan. And that is pretty much it.
For the old time campaigners it’s the fantasy of an unregulated world wide free trading operation based I’m sorry to say largely on dislike of the closest neighbours.
It’s Dominic Cummings waking up in the night with his “take back control” slogan. And that is pretty much it.
For the old time campaigners it’s the fantasy of an unregulated world wide free trading operation based I’m sorry to say largely on dislike of the closest neighbours.
Ichkeria, //For the old time campaigners it’s the fantasy of an unregulated world wide free trading operation based I’m sorry to say largely on dislike of the closest neighbours. //
Not true at all - and not only that, blatantly nasty! You know what I was saying about integrity having been relegated to the trash can .....?
Not true at all - and not only that, blatantly nasty! You know what I was saying about integrity having been relegated to the trash can .....?
//You keep saying the EU is not complacent. Where did the idea come from that they were? //
From you.
//They want us to stay so badly M Macron in particular seems prepared to boycott any attempt to delay Brexit any longer. Maybe Nigel will send him a gift :-) //
That was irony, Naomi :-)
What I really meant was "they don't want us to stay at all", hence the threat of a boycott.
From you.
//They want us to stay so badly M Macron in particular seems prepared to boycott any attempt to delay Brexit any longer. Maybe Nigel will send him a gift :-) //
That was irony, Naomi :-)
What I really meant was "they don't want us to stay at all", hence the threat of a boycott.
“The last two years and more have been spent trying to cushion the blow of leaving the EU as much as possible.”
I would go further than that. Those two years have been spent trying to negotiate an alternative form of EU Membership which purports to suggest we had “left”. That is the root cause of this impasse.
Fortunately MPs have seen through this (ignoring the Labour dissenters who simply voted against the deal in an effort to destabilise the government). There is no way that any self-respecting MP could agree to Mrs May appalling deal and the idea that it is solely the Irish issue making it unpalatable is nonsense.
Believing that the EU would agree to us leaving on sensible terms was always a mistake but, bearing in mind the above, was no surprise. It was obvious a year or more ago that no such terms would be forthcoming. As I’ve said throughout, I don’t blame the EU. It’s their club, their rules. I blame our spineless (or perhaps more likely deceitful) politicians for acquiescing to the EU’s every demand. If you give in in that way, more and more demands will be piled on. And that’s precisely what has happened.
A Parliament with any integrity would recognise there are just two choices on offer: to leave with Mrs May’s deal or to leave with No Deal. A vote should be held on that basis forthwith because seeking a delay will simply mean the same situation prevailing at the end of that deferment.
“ And there is a deep dislike and suspicion of our closest European neighbours.”
No there isn’t. There is a deep dislike and suspicion of the supra-national organisation that control them (and even seeks to control some non-members). That’s completely different.
I would go further than that. Those two years have been spent trying to negotiate an alternative form of EU Membership which purports to suggest we had “left”. That is the root cause of this impasse.
Fortunately MPs have seen through this (ignoring the Labour dissenters who simply voted against the deal in an effort to destabilise the government). There is no way that any self-respecting MP could agree to Mrs May appalling deal and the idea that it is solely the Irish issue making it unpalatable is nonsense.
Believing that the EU would agree to us leaving on sensible terms was always a mistake but, bearing in mind the above, was no surprise. It was obvious a year or more ago that no such terms would be forthcoming. As I’ve said throughout, I don’t blame the EU. It’s their club, their rules. I blame our spineless (or perhaps more likely deceitful) politicians for acquiescing to the EU’s every demand. If you give in in that way, more and more demands will be piled on. And that’s precisely what has happened.
A Parliament with any integrity would recognise there are just two choices on offer: to leave with Mrs May’s deal or to leave with No Deal. A vote should be held on that basis forthwith because seeking a delay will simply mean the same situation prevailing at the end of that deferment.
“ And there is a deep dislike and suspicion of our closest European neighbours.”
No there isn’t. There is a deep dislike and suspicion of the supra-national organisation that control them (and even seeks to control some non-members). That’s completely different.
'the idea that it is solely the Irish issue making it unpalatable is nonsense.'
It is. But it is the major stumbling block.
The DUP see it as an opportunity for the UK to make constitutional changes.
The EU has said it would be willing to drop the UK-wide customs union at any point, in exchange for a Northern Ireland-only backstop. But this has been rejected by May.
We were supposed to be able to exit any backstop agreement (via the 'instrument' agreed between May and the EU) as it would be temporary but the Government’s own legal advice has concluded that we might be unable to exit the backstop if future relationship negotiations fail. The instrument has, of course, now been rejected so I don't see a way back on this.
It is. But it is the major stumbling block.
The DUP see it as an opportunity for the UK to make constitutional changes.
The EU has said it would be willing to drop the UK-wide customs union at any point, in exchange for a Northern Ireland-only backstop. But this has been rejected by May.
We were supposed to be able to exit any backstop agreement (via the 'instrument' agreed between May and the EU) as it would be temporary but the Government’s own legal advice has concluded that we might be unable to exit the backstop if future relationship negotiations fail. The instrument has, of course, now been rejected so I don't see a way back on this.
// ...legal advice has concluded that we might be unable to exit the backstop if future relationship negotiations fail. //
Since the entire point of the Backstop is that it is a failsafe way of ensuring that the Irish border remains open in the event of negotiations failing, it stands to reason that we shouldn't be able to exit it if negotiations, conducted in good faith*, are failing.
Since the entire point of the Backstop is that it is a failsafe way of ensuring that the Irish border remains open in the event of negotiations failing, it stands to reason that we shouldn't be able to exit it if negotiations, conducted in good faith*, are failing.
It isn’t the “Irish issue” alone making it unpalatable NJ, but it’s the issue which appears to be what is stopping some - Tories - voting for it.
Meanwhile Andrea Leadsom has indicated - no doubt, er, complacently, that if the Revoke Article 50 petition reaches 17 million signatures then the government might have to take action. Does that mean the referendum result is not sacrosanct even to her ?!!
Meanwhile Andrea Leadsom has indicated - no doubt, er, complacently, that if the Revoke Article 50 petition reaches 17 million signatures then the government might have to take action. Does that mean the referendum result is not sacrosanct even to her ?!!
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