Geet-Wilders acquitted.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph....e-speech-charges.html

Good to read that they still enjoy free speech in the Netherlands, as well as a politician who is not afraid to speak out against the spread of Islam into his country.

/// Mr Wilders, said he was "defending the character, the identity, the culture and the freedom of The Netherlands." ///

Is there anyone who would defend the character, the identity, the culture and the freedom of Britain?

[emmie]

pixi agree, but crazy people have an awful habit of getting into power and staying there, at the cost to the people, stalin, mao, hitler, pol pot, hussein, mugabe, and lots of other nice people. AB where are you when we need you...

[jackthehat]

Not many muslims in that^ list....?!?

[emmie]

I left one out, Osama Bin Laden. But you know wouldn't want to be biased.

[Kromovaracun]

AOG:

"There were also many who said similar to that way back in the 30s.when discussing the threat of Nazism, good job we didn't take any notice of those appeasers then. "

I take issue with you harking back to the 1930s. I think it's incredibly simplistic, badly thought-out and moreover demonstrates what's wrong with your argument as a whole.

In the 1930s, you could with some certainty talk about 'Nazism' as one set of ideas that all or most Nazis shared. Obviously that doesn't include people who became party members while indifferent to the ideology (for career reasons, peer pressure or whatever), but of the Nazis who were actually Nazis, you could with a fair degree of certainty identify what 'Nazism' was and see what was threatening about it.

While some scholars go picking through the Koran to try and paint Islam in a similar perspective, in terms of actual practical behavior the same simply cannot be said of it. While you have Muslims on the one hand who proclaim Jihad and others who are concrete threats to public safety, you have others who (like many Christians) kind of take whatever they were taught the values of their faith are to heart but don't necessarily practice it in every fibre of their existence, or otherwise have varying degrees of devotion. Talking about 'Islam' like it's one ideology is about as valid as talking about 'Christianity' like it's one ideology.

Even if you accept that, some people make the wider argument that the nastier parts of Islamic faith (and boy there are some nasty parts) are 'alien' and incompatible or somehow soil British culture and society. But if you take an issue like homosexuality, conservative Muslims aren't of any lower level of enlightenment than some indigenous folks like, say, docspock or joeluke (who I'm sure won't mind being named). And they deserve to be dealt with in much the same way - by being challenged about their views publicly (t

[Kromovaracun]

And they deserve to be dealt with in much the same way - by being challenged about their views publicly (this is where academics have kind of failed where they could potentially do a lot of good).

That's why your 1930s analogy is wrong and misleading, and by extension that's why your view of Islam is simplistic and comes across as quite badly-informed.

[emmie]

perhaps some don't like having the country, culture, slammed by people who have no interest in being part of a wider community, adapting and fitting in, and the never ending immigration, which has had a major impact on life here. Having it shoved down their throats about the rights of others who enter Britain, above those of the people who have contributed to this society. How many scoff at the British who go abroad, set up fish and chip, burger outlets, and pubs, say in spain and don't get to know the people who's country they have settled in, yet do not have the same attitude to those who come to Britain and do exactly the same thing, talk about double standards. I happen to believe that whereever you live, learn the language, fit in, be part of that wider community, and adapt to their way of life, and don't tell them how to run their lives.

[Ankou]

the majority of people who go to a fish and chip shop, burger outlet or pub in spain ..... are british.

the majortiy of people who go to indian, italian, turkish, chinese, thai, lebanese restaurants in the uk .... are british.

i am not really following your analogy, but what i think you are saying is that immigrants to the uk have the upper hand on integration in terms if success.

[emmie]

i was referring to the fact that some British people have set up businesses in spain for exmple, pubs, fish and chip cafes, so have taken their culture, call it what you will, to a foreign country, have not mixed with the locals, and are slammed as the British Raj once were, for being Little Englanders, and i find the same here, areas of London where you will only find Asian, , greek, turkish, chinese shops, who cater for their own communities, i don't believe we are mixed, integrated, large pockets of the capital are ghettoised, many have settled here, yet remain apart from the mainstream. We tolerate one another, not integrate, its a totally different thing. Maybe in years to come, who knows.

[Brenden]

Take a walk down Brick Lane, Bethnal Green, it is almost a no go area for infidels.

[emmie]

i find the most difficult thing to have cyber conversations, where you can not make points without seeming as though you are one track minded, what you type on here, isn't necessarily how you would speak, or explain when having a real conversation, face to face, it's why i don't belong to things like face book, blah blah, because its too impersonal, and too many things can be misconstrued.

[Brenden]

Same here Em, I don,t have a facebook or twitter account.

[Kromovaracun]

I think I get what you're saying em.

"perhaps some don't like having the country, culture, slammed by people who have no interest in being part of a wider community"

You and I have the right, if we want, to attack and question our culture country's culture or values if we want to - you see it sometimes on this site. There is absolutely no reason why immigrants shouldn't have the same right. It is however a myth that these people get some kind of special protection - that's simply due to a failure of public figures (for some reason) to attack what these people say and defend our values more robustly.

"I happen to believe that whereever you live, learn the language, fit in, be part of that wider community, and adapt to their way of life,"

Surely this rather depends on what you mean by 'fit in' - which is a bit open-ended in interpretation. Let's say an immigrant comes here, learns English (which the vast majority will do actually despite what the press would have you believe) finds a job, pays his/her taxes etc. but still wants to follow Islam, and socially feels most comfortable in the community surrounding that faith etc. Surely that's a right he has if he wants to? It's certainly one that everyone else has.

Now, I've got a feeling you wouldn't define that as 'fitting in', but intuitively he could also call it that with about as much validity. And it's not just a 'common sense' thing either - I think for what you're saying to work, you need to be a bit more specific in what you mean by 'fitting in'.

[emmie]

K i have tried to reply to your last post, but its not coming together, i will end up typing something i will come to regret, that is why i don't have cyber chats. They can go spectacularly wrong.

[Kromovaracun]

Alright em, fair enough.

[anotheoldgit]

kromovaracun

I have taken much interest in yours and em's exchanges, and I find I must agree with what em is trying to say, and at the same time I especially agree with your paragraph that begins with,

/// Surely this rather depends on what you mean by 'fit in' -///

But having said that, I would be most interested with your views on the increasing number of Mosques that are changing the skyline of most English cities?

I personally think that our cities, towns and villages should remain essentially English, not to be transformed slowly into something resembling a Middle Eastern country.

Then there is the matter of our laws, being changed to accommodate certain religions and cultures, i.e. members of the Sikh religion being allowed to ride motor cycles without a crash hat, also being allowed to carry a knife in public places.

I am not being racist in my views, but I express the views of many on such issues as these.

[Kromovaracun]

"I would be most interested with your views on the increasing number of Mosques that are changing the skyline of most English cities? "

I think an Englishman would be quite entitled to either build a mosque or lobby for one to be built if he wanted to (though obviously he's never had any reason to). I also think that a tax-paying, legal immigrant has all the same rights as he does. Personally, I just don't think our skylines are some kind of cultural real-estate - maybe it's just a generational thing, but I just don't see any reason to be particularly bothered by it. Plus mosques aren't the only thing affecting our skylines - us Brits have been behind some pretty atrocious eyesores (the 'Gherkin' anyone?). In response to those, you can easily respond with 'well, that's all a matter of opinion' - but if it applies to them, then I don't see how exactly the same thing can't apply to mosques.

"Then there is the matter of our laws, being changed to accommodate certain religions and cultures, [e.g. Sikhs etc] "

In the helmet example, I'm just not convinced it's a particularly concrete example of cultural erosion or whatever. I just don't feel particularly oppressed or like my cultural heritage is being damaged by the fact that on paper I'm not allowed to go without a crash helmet while a Sikh is. A big part of that is simply because it's fairly meaningless in practical reality - I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could go and dig up an example of somebody being fined or prosecuted for not wearing a crash helmet, but they just seem to be the unlucky ones. If you really, really, really want to go riding without a crash helmet (not that anyone does anymore because it's stupid), I'm pretty sure you can effectively do it regardless of what the law says, and all you'll really get is some disapproval from your fellow citizens. It'd take a fair bit to convince me otherwise.

The knife example I'm more symp

[Kromovaracun]

For Funks Sake. Would it really kill the site to warn me when I'm over the limit like it used to?

[...]

The knife example I'm more sympathetic to because it's open to abuse. But that's really just a public safety thing rather than a culture thing.

"I am not being racist in my views, but I express the views of many on such issues as these. "

Yes, you probably do.