Jerusalem: The making of a Holy City - BBC4

[naomi24]

I've just watched the third and final part of this excellent series that traced the history of that lovely old city throughout the ages, and culminated in its current continuing bloody religious conflict - and I just thought STOP! For the sake of humanity STOP! The Orthodox Eastern Church at odds with the Church of Rome, in turn at odds with the Protestants, and all at odds with the Jews who in turn are at odds with the Muslims - everyone at odds with everyone else - and all for nothing except the totally unsupported tripe found in ancient books! Bloody religion! What stupid futile nonsense it all is! Bloody depressing!

[sandyRoe]

Waiting for the 5th Column people to wake up?

[vetuste_ennemi]

//Only God Almighty knows everything. We poor mortals can only struggle to glimpse his plans for us. We can not know the ineffable//

Then on what evidence can you make claims about original sin, the incarnation and redemption through blood sacrifice, Sandy? These are things that you as a seemingly orthodox Christian claim to know, aren't they?

[sandyRoe]

I am not a theologian, just a simple man of simple faith. I have not the wherewithal to answer your question, Vetuste_ennemi.

[MarkRae]

> I am not a theologian, just a simple man of simple faith.

So you don't understand what you think you believe - you just believe it? Seriously...?

[sandyRoe]

Yes, indeed. Since when did faith need proof?

[sith123]

thanks sandyroe, i agree with you completely and will follow and try your advice :)

[Mosaic]

Interesting one Markrae: I believe X-rays and scans see inside my body but I have no clue how this is doen. I don't understand it. But I have faith it will work.
I don't believe in invisible skyfathers but I don't mind others doing it.
But what we're really seeing in Jerusalem is the consequence of political power being justified by religious ends.
If it was a playground scrap you'd make them all sit quietly in separate corners and take the football off them for a while.
Someone mentioned Nicosia being sorted out by the UN: the city has been separated but the issues have not been sorted out.
Like in Israel, these now revolve around allowing people with different religious and ethnic backgrounds to live unmolested and with equal rights.

[beso]

Or more precisely:

people with different religious and ethnic backgrounds allowing others to live unmolested and with equal rights.

[Craftypig]

Within 4 pages of posts you are already beating each other up, tell you what makes me laugh, the fact that even the non-believers have to have a go too, every religion believes there's is the one and everyone else is wrong! But even the "enlightened" non-believers have to become embroiled in these ridiculous spats. Completely juvenile.......

[beso]

CraftyPig is like many who believe there should be no counter those making ridiculous religious claims. It reflects their acceptance of the status quo where the religious are no answerable for their propaganda.

[Craftypig]

No beso, I dont care who believes what, when, where or how. What I do believe though, because I can actually see it with my own eyes is this.....Whenever there is a religious "debate" it quickly descends into a slagging match between the believers and non-believers. Beso hwat would be your answer to changing the status quo, that all religion be banned perhaps? If that isn't a pipedream on the scale of believing in an imaginary all seeing, all knowing creator, I dont know what is....

[naomi24]

//Whenever there is a religious "debate" it quickly descends into a slagging match between the believers and non-believers.......I dont care who believes what, when, where or how. //

I don't see a slagging match here - or even a slanging match. And I don't see that highlighting the stupidity that is religion is juvenile either - because I actually do care about the potential for peace in this world.

[beso]

I don't support the banning of religion. That just sends it underground. Much better that its beliefs be brought out into the open where they can be discussed intelligently and people allowed to make an informed decision.

Religious apologists continue to portray the criticism of religious beliefs as some kind of unfair bashing as though we are making up nasty misrepresentations of what they believe.

The great weakness of the Abrahamc religions is their holy books which clearly set out in black and white what they believe in. Those beliefs need to be scrutinised and their disgusting truths revealed.

The religious don't like having it pointed out that the Bible exalts genocide as evidence of the glory of their deity but the fact is it is written right there in the Bible. Read Joshua if you have the slightest doubt about the real foundations of Abrahamic philosophy and the fascism it encompasses.

But obviously you don't you think people should be allowed to point that out. Tough luck. Your insults simly demonstrate your desperation and help unravel the truth about religious attitudes.

[beso]

It isn't a slagging match from the atheist side. We simply point out the facts.

The religious generally evade the issues and continue to spout the same drivel they always have leaving it up to the apologists to defend their corner. Now the aploigist they really do know haw to ***.

[jomifl]

Sandy don't believers spend most of their time trying to prove their faith ...to their god?

[naomi24]

Imagine knowing nothing about religion, and happening upon Jerusalem. Apart from the obvious military presence, it all looks fairly normal until once through one of the ancient gates and into the narrow streets of the old city, you find men wearing a variety of hats, swaying rhythmically back and forth, practically battering their heads on an ancient wall which contains slips of paper prayers in every crack, whilst muttering words of the book each clutches in his hand - and to the right, a separate section of the wall cordoned off and designated for women only. Suddenly you hear someone wailing through a loudspeaker, and in a magnificent building topped by a golden dome, you see shoeless men wearing little caps on their heads, lying flat on their faces on the floor, and again, a separate section designated for women. Down the road you encounter a procession bearing a big wooden cross, and following it you enter a building where people with beads in hand weep profusely whilst fondling and kissing a slab of stone. These same people queue to enter a large construction that is reputed to contain an ancient tomb (although you're told that said tomb is claimed by others to have been situated elsewhere), and then after climbing stairs you witness them, one by one, kneeling on the floor, bowing their heads under a cloth covered table and stretching their hands out awkwardly to feel into the depths of a hole.

And the whole place is separated by barriers guarded by armed soldiers. You make enquiries and are told that you have witnessed all of these people venerating the same God - the one that, because their books each contain different information, none of which is supported by any evidence, but nevertheless claim to contain this God's word and therefore the 'truth' - disagree over. And there you are, in the 21st century, transported instantly back to the lunacy of the Dark Ages. You'd have to question the sense in it, wouldn't you? I do.