Vladimir Putin Accuses David Cameron Of Betraying Humanitarian Values

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/g8-summit-begins-vladimir-putin-accuses-david-cameron-of-betraying-humanitarian-values-by-supporting-syrian-rebels-8661048.html

Which would it be right to support, the legitimate government of Syria or the rebels?

[ichkeria]

I don't think Obama is baning any drums actually. It;s Cameron who is banging the drum and I think he is right to do so.
I can see what's going to happen:
There'll be a joint statement from all the G8 leaders saing they support a peace conference, but no peace conference will ever happen, largely thanks to President P. I wish Putin had been forced to give a speech to the Belfast schoolchildren, explaining to them why he consistently arms a mass murderer. And then taken questions and answers later.
And then been escorted out of our Province double quick :-)

[jake-the-peg]

//I wish Putin had been forced to give a speech to the Belfast schoolchildren, explaining to them why he consistently arms a mass murderer.//

Right and Obama 's occupation of Afghanistan gives him the automatic high ground doesn't it?

Who do you think has killed more do you think?

[ichkeria]

I don't think Obama has huge moral high ground but that wasn't my point.

Compared to Vlad he is a saint and that goes for all recent US presidents.
He hasn't the deliberate of murder of children with vacuum bombs on their CV, nor the bombing of his own citizens.
Or the arbitrary jalining of his political opponents.

etc etc etc

[ichkeria]

And I might add that "occupation of Afghanistan" doesn't even register with me on that score.
Drone bombing is a different matter of course.

[emmie]

not forgetting who was supplying money to the IRA, some dim witted Americans not to mention Col Ghaddafi who supplied arms and training.

[jake-the-peg]

Perhaps not but he has the reckless manslaughter of children with drones on his - I imagine the distinction is a fine one if you're a parent

And the whole point of Guantanamo is that jailing such people in such a manner would be illegal in the US

Obama has continued extraordinary renditions with suspects being snatched off of the streets in Kenya and flown for 'interrogation' in Somalia

http://www.thenation.com/print/article/161936/cias-secret-sites-somalia#axzz2WYJBpBa0

I'm sorry but if you think Obama's a saint even in comparisom to Putin I think you've just been conned by the shiney front window

[jake-the-peg]

Did it 'register' with you when it was the evil Russians doing it in the 80's

Or was that different

How about the 100,000 deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan - felling any registration? No?

[emmie]

i doubt anyone thinks he is a saint, he is a bloke in a very tough job, he should have closed Guantanamo bay though, and not sent drones,
Obama is not a hardliner, look to Putin for that.

[emmie]

one thing that always gets forgotten in these debates is it's often despots, tyrants killing their own, how many did Gaddafi kill, or Mao, Stalin, pol pot, all barbarians. Not freedom fighters, fighting for democracy, but cold hearted murderers.

[ichkeria]

Afghanistan under Soviet occupation? Yes Jake it was very different. I'm sorry but it was. Even Afghans I know who supported the communist government there and who are uncomfortable with the Western occupation now, agree on that.
I was a big opponent of the Iraq war but the 100,000 deaths there, while certainly the consequences of that wretched exercise, were not the diliberate intention of the priginal invading force. "Cock-up" rather than actual intent to slaughter. A hell of a cock-up admittedly, which failed to take into account the influence of Al Qaeda and its capacity to foment sectarian divisions in a country where all native law enforcement had simply been removed

[Ann]

I don't think we should get involved in this situation.

[ludwig]

I can't see any good outcome to this war at all. It's a power struggle between Sunni and Shia muslims. If the current regime goes it'll be replaced by another one equally as horrible by the looks of it.
I'd agree we should keep out of it.

[ichkeria]

It isn't just a question of what happens in Syria though. The war has the potential - in fact it's already happening - to destabilise the whole region and beyond.

[hedgebeater]

Stay out! This country not only doesn't learn from history, it does take any notice of recent past happenings, like Iraq and Afghanistan. You will never turn tribal societies into democracies. The people do not understand. They need a strong leader to follow, even a despotic one. Iraq was a stable country before the West "liberated" them

[ichkeria]

Syria's not really a "tribal" society though, in the way, say, Libya is.

A "tribal" rebellion of sorts occurred a few years ago but was ruthlessly suppressed. Remarkably though, no bitter legacy from that seems to have lasted. Calls for "democracy" come from the people of Syria themselves, not from outside. That was how this war started. The armed opposition movement only started as an act of self-preservation/defence.

[emmie]

yes it is.
http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/tribal-and-islamist-clashes-in-syria-reveal-deep-divisions

[emmie]

it why i say we shouldn't get involved, no one will thank us mark my words.

[ichkeria]

We aren't doing it - if we do do it - for gratitude. That would be a strange motive.
As I said above, it isn't now not merely a question of what happens in Syria but further afield.

And the tribal issue is being overplayed in that article in my view, for what it is worth. It is not a key issue, although the longer the bloodshed continues the more traditional divisions come to the fore.