Who Is He Kidding?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hivpositive-man-slams-nigel-farage-for-deeply-offensive-remarks-10155006.html

/// Speaking to The Independent, Mr Alimi said the majority of people with HIV who come to the UK would have no idea they were entitled to free treatment for their condition. ///

/// “When I came to this country in 2007 I was running away from being killed. I love my country and I want to make change at home, but there was an attempt on my life. I thought, ‘If I’m going to stay alive I’ve got to leave my country.’ I had no idea that I could claim asylum, and that I could have access to treatment.” ///

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-hivpositive-immigrant-is-using-free-hugs-to-campaign-against-ukip--ly3cOcYFgZ

With all the World's countries to choose from I wonder why he came to one of the furthest away, the UK?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/usvsth3m/hiv-positive-immigrant-convinces-ukip-5638920

Apparently the Mirror readership isn't very happy about the Mirror's anti-UKIP propaganda.

Yet more votes for UKIP.

[sp1814]

AOG

Even more strange is that you've posted a question relating to a story which is over a month old.

It's actually older than the last three questions you posted on the subject.

I'm surprised you missed the original Independent report in all those questions you've posted.

However, thank you for posting this, because it throws another light to the question of 'health tourism'.

I believe that anyone coming to the UK to work and who will be paying taxes should be free to use the NHS like anyone else.

If we were to (say) introduce a system whereby new immigrants could not receive NHS treatment (because as many have said, "They've not paid into the system"), then we should bite the bullet and introduce the same conditions to those who have lived their adult life on benefits, because they too have a minus net contribution status.

[Gromit]

The UK isn't the furthest country from Nigeria. There are plenty of nations more distant. Nigeria had British rule until Independence and is a member of the Commonwealth. It's official language is English, not French or Swedish or icelandic. Which is probably why he chose to come here.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

/// Even more strange is that you've posted a question relating to a story which is over a month old. ///

All three articles were in today's press.

Independent, Tuesday 05 May 2015

Independent, Posted 2 hours ago

Mirror posted, 13:25, 5 May 2015

I've got news for you they are even publishing reports regarding VE Day and that was 70 years ago, so in your mind should no one enter questions on those reports?

/// then we should bite the bullet and introduce the same conditions to those who have lived their adult life on benefits, because they too have a minus net contribution status. ///

That's a shocking suggestion to make, not all life long benefit claimants are benefit fraudsters, there are many who have life long disabilities and never been given a chance to go to work and earn a living so as to pay into the 'Pot'.

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

/// The UK isn't the furthest country from Nigeria. ///

I didn't say it was, I said 'ONE' of the furthest.

/// Which is probably why he chose to come here. ///

Yer in your dreams.

[New Judge]

That seems fair enough to me!

It would be interesting to learn how Mr Alimi arrived here. (Details seem to be lacking). If he travelled overland he almost certainly would have encountered a safe haven before arriving in the UK and should have applied for asylum there. If he did not then strictly speaking he has forfeited the right to claim asylum anywhere else. But, hey-ho, who cares about the rules so long as he is happy?

If he was genuinely in fear for his life it is doubtful he would have worried too much about the language spoken in his chosen haven or if it was a Commonwealth country. Of course no asylum seekers know they are entitled to (among many other things) free treatment for the various ailments from which they suffer. That's why, when asked, those camping in Calais High Street say they long to get to the UK because they know they will be "looked after".

[sp1814]

AOG

You wrote:

"That's a shocking suggestion to make, not all life long benefit claimants are benefit fraudsters"

Who said they were?

Would you agree that those who are on incapacity benefits could be excluded, but those who have not worked, or have made little contributions, should have their access to the NHS capped?

Would that not be a great spur to get people off their backsides?

I should point out that this isn't necessarily what I think should happen, but if we were to tackle health tourism, we should also address the unfairness which we all suffer from. I've paid hundreds of thousands of pounds in tax and NI in my working career- why should other Brits who has claimed benefits all their lives have access to the same medical care as me?

[Gromit]

Thanet is 3109 miles from Nigeria. Further away are...

Saudi Arabia - Riyadh 3132 miles
Netherlands - Amsterdam 3165 miles
Moldova - Chisinau 3177 miles
Iraq - Baghdad 3215 miles
Germany - Berlin - Berlin 3224 miles
Ireland - Dublin 3276 miles
Kuwait - Kuwait City 3305 miles
Poland - Warsaw 3311 miles
Isle of Man - Douglas 3315 miles
Bahrain - Manama 3394 miles
Ukraine - Kyiv 3412 miles
Denmark - Copenhagen 3430 miles
Qatar - Doha 3434 miles
Madagascar - Antananarivo 3479 miles
Belarus - Minsk 3539 miles
Iran - Karaj 3627 miles
Iran - Tehran 3647 miles
United Arab Emirates - Dubai 3664 miles
Norway - Oslo 3706 miles
Sweden - Stockholm 3727 miles
Brazil - Rio de Janeiro 3740 miles
Estonia - Tallinn 3823 miles
Brazil - Distrito Federal - Brasilia 3827 miles
Finland - Helsinki 3872 miles
Russia - Moscow 3883 miles
Brazil - São Paulo 3955 miles
Iceland - Reykjavik 4171 miles
Uzbekistan - Tashkent 4679 miles
India - Maharashtra - Mumbai 4740 miles
Venezuela - Caracas 4805 miles
Argentina - Buenos Aires 4911 miles
India - Delhi - New Delhi 5033 miles
U.S.A. - New York - New York 5269 miles
Canada - Quebec - Montreal 5270 miles
U.S.A. - District of Columbia - Washington DC 5426 miles
Canada - Ontario - Toronto 5551 miles
Chile - Santiago 5556 miles
Peru - Lima 5671 miles
India - West Bengal - Kolkata 5737 miles
U.S.A. - Michigan - Detroit 5738 miles
Cuba - Havana 5779 miles
Bangladesh - Dhaka 5861 miles
U.S.A. - Illinois - Chicago 5976 miles
Mexico - Mexico City 6883 miles
China - Beijing 7129 miles
Indonesia - Jakarta 7456 miles
U.S.A. - California - Los Angeles 7720 miles
Japan - Tokyo 8380 miles

[Svejk]

^ how childish.

[New Judge]

Your contention that if we should refuse migrants healthcare and benefits on the basis they have not contributed to the pot then we should do the same to the indigenous population is disingenuous, sp.

People in the UK contribute to funds that provide for a National Health Service and a National system of welfare benefits, not international versions. The system is not designed (or funded) on the basis that whoever turns up on these shores should enjoy similar entitlements. This is not peculiar to the UK; it is fairly fundamental in most other nations with similar schemes.

If people want to provide funds for anybody who arrives here I’m sure there are charities set up to whom they can make contributions and will provide the facilities they wish to pay for. To use taxpayers’ money to do so, when the electorate is being told that money is short (as indeed it is, witnessed by the National Debt) is outrageous. I for one do not want the government to borrow money, the debt for which I must pay to service, so that the likes of Mt Alimi can receive free medical treatment (whether that was his reason for coming here or not).

A good exercise in Geography, Gromit. Hope it didn't take too long. Much nearer, of course, and not on your list are Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Sudan, Western Sahara. And of course nearer by a long chalk are Guinea, Liberia, Ivory Coast to name a few. But it isn’t about distance really is it? People arrive have “fled from danger and persecution” from all over the world, many of them passing through numerous safe havens on the way. But they seem to end up here. I wonder why that is?

[sp1814]

New Judge

That makes no sense.

What you're saying is that immigrants should not receive NHS treatment.

That's a ridiculous position to take. If someone comes to this country and is working, why should they be denied NHS treatment? They too would be paying into the pot, but if your logic follows - the wouldn't be able to use the NHS.

That being the the case, should working immigrants pay a reduced NI contribution, seeing as certain services would be denied them?

[askyourgran]

I agree with NJ, immigrants nowadays know exactly where to go to find the best benefits otherwise there would be no queues at Calais and elsewhere to get here. We pay a National Insurance and have a National Health Service paid for by the people who have lived and worked here in most cases for many years. I certainly didn't pay into the National Insurance to give it away willynilly to someone who is fed up of their dodgy lifestyle elsewhere. Far too many are given free access to our health services that have not paid into the system and the system is suffering because of it.

[Hypognosis]

While in a waiting room at a major London hospital I witnessed one of those classic conversations: customer asserting their rights to X, versus powerless official, with the thankless task of telling them it doesn't work like that.

I can't be sure I heard the exact words "but they told me it was free, here" but that is my lasting memory of the exchange.

There was some tension in the discussion because the person behind the counter was also black and the sense of "we're the same, you're supposed to help me out" was palpable.

The upshot was that it was too bad about the air fare she had paid but the treatment would not be free because she had not paid her contributions.

So, the message about free GP advice and hospitals evidently reaches distant lands but not the unedited "free at the point of use" version. We all understand it is far from "free"; we all understand how group insurance works. Either migrants have not thought that deeply or they just take us for mugs. If they won't treat us in a fair way, why should we reciprocate?

[New Judge]

I'm not talking about immigrants who come here to work, sp (though I would support a minimum qualification period of about three years). I'm talking about people who arrive here hiding in the back of lorries, who disappear into the ether that is the black economy, who contribute little or nothing to the economic well being ofthe nation y and are simply just freeloading.

It's not too clear into which what category Mr Alimi falls as the article is for some inexplicable reason a bit short on such details. I have the impression that if he were a net contributor to the economy we would have heard about it, but I cannot be sure.

[sp1814]

New Judge

Ah, I now see - you're not referring to all immigrants, just those who don't work. I would propose that anyone seeking treatment from a GP has to produce their NI number. That would be a simple and easily implemented procedure, and would be fairer all round.

[New Judge]

No, not really a satisfactory solution,sp.

It's not too difficult to obtain an NI number and undertake - and have no intention of ever undertaking - any gainful work. All it means is that it becomes somewhat easier to claim benefits.

If the UK wants to open its doors to allcomers who will need support, medical care, education for their children, housing and associated benefits it needs to charge those who do work and pay taxes considerably more than it does now (as is evident by the deficit and increasing debt figures).

People arriving here and who begin to make contributions themselves should have a minimum qualifying period (of decent contributions) before they are eligible for any of the above. In the meantime any medical care needed (bar accidents and emergencies - which does not include pregnancy) can be either paid for in cash or covered by private medical insurance. At the moment just about anybody can arrive here and gain support to a greater or lesser degree and that (like many other things paid for by a benevolent State) is simply unsustainable if the nation is ever to properly prosper