Listener 4361 Two For The Price Of One By Monk

[Contrarian]

Pretty easy grid fill, and an interesting second puzzle. I do quite enjoy puzzles of this second type, but the ones I have seen before tend to be very trivial. This one was a little more challenging.

Thanks Monk.


(Apologies if there is already a thread for this crossword. I couldn't find one, but with the unpredictable Answerbank search function, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.)

[Inanna47]

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[Scorpius]

jim360, I'm not claiming my two 'solutions' are necessarily correct. I've never heard of a "train tracks" puzzle, let alone seen one or a solution to one, so I don't know what the rules are and what is regarded as a permissable path. If it's permitted to enter and exit a cell via a corner (as implied by one of the thematic cells), I have a solution, and another one almost identical. If it's not, I haven't.

It seems a bit unfair that all solvers are assumed to be au fait with "train tracks" puzzles.

[olichant]

Scorpius, it's a fair point. My understanding (and hopefully I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that a cell can either contain a straight piece of track connecting two opposite sides (in their respective middles), or a bendy piece of track connecting the middle of one side to the middle of an adjacent side. So it's not permissible to enter a cell via its edge.

Assuming (hoping!) I'm right, I agree it's a bit mean to assume knowledge of the puzzle.

[Scorpius]

Thanks, olichant, that's very helpful, and it's the sort of help that most definitely should have been given in the puzzle. Last week's numerical included an explanation of a Fibonacci sequence, which was not strictly necessary since it's easy to find an explanation on the internet. By contrast, I've searched for examples of "train tracks" puzzles on the internet and got nowhere.

[regorr]

"Train Tracks" puzzles with explanation appear on the facing page of the Times to the Listener crossword.

[Scorpius]

Thanks regorr, but that's no help to one who gets the crossword from the Times Crossword club and lives abroad in a country where the Times is not easily available. Quite a few Listener solvers do not live in England.

[IainGrace]

On the subject of regional indicators - clues which suit us Scots - there is arguably never any need for them. The word is either in Chambers or it's not. The purpose presumably is to alert those with extensive vocabularies (most crossword fiends) to the fact that even they may not know the word without assistance. As for this week, think we will leave others to spend time on the tracks.

[borealis]

Nice mixture of clues of varying difficulty, producing several nice "doh"s from me when I found the answers. In contrast to UglyUncle, I liked the train track bit, so I enjoyed the puzzle as a whole. Thanks, Monk.
I must agree with UglyUncle, however, that the 28a definition is just wrong. Even if all you have to go on is the BRB wording, and don't know the words, they ain't synonyms. It's like defining a Spaniel as a.... Setter?

[Scorpius]

Knowing the rules (thanks again olichant) I tackled the "train tracks" puzzle again and traced the path in under fifteen minutes, so it's not hard despite some earlier comments. Anyone who has been discouraged from attempting it should have another look. It does help to start with a blank grid, entering the just the 'initial information' and entering a 'no-entry' symbol in those cells that from the start must be no-go areas.

[icynorth]

Catching up with belated comments after a holiday. I'm undecided whether this is a brilliant achievement, or whether the puzzle could have been extended by another layer or so (or even made symmetrical). I guess it depends on how difficult it is to compile a train tracks puzzle and how rigid the special cells are to that process.

In the end, I'm glad it was not too difficult - I've managed to complete it in time - but fun, as always. Thanks, Monk!

[Scree]

Have to say, after resorting to another site a few times lately when I couldn't quite finish the puzzle (and scrupulously not sending in entries if I got undue help thus) I see why a contributor there referred to this forum in unflattering terms.

Not keen enough on train tracks to have ever finished one, but having slowly worked my way through this puzzle I found the special cells useful enough to decipher a route.

Had I started the puzzle earlier I might have called it too easy. As it is I've just finished in time to submit an entry.

So what do I find when I check this thread? There might be another route (I don't care) - and 28A is incorrect. Well, it's fine according to Chambers, which contains more Scottish words than most dictionaries, so I'll leave you to argue it out with the editors. I was pleased enough to get the final wrinkle to the clue.

I have to say that a forum where people boast that they solved a Listener puzzle on Friday when the Times doesn't come out until Saturday gets my back up - if only because I'm not a Murdoch fan and would never pay to get the puzzle online.

If you're that keen to get it, and then solve it in a night, what do you do with the rest of the week? It's bound to come across as rather smug and cliquey to the rest of us. I could be pretentious here and say that a Listener is like a fine wine, to be savoured at leisure, but obviously I wouldn't. That would show I was just as bourgeois and elitist as the rest of you!

[Scree]

Sorry for such a churlish post. Don’t know quite where that came from (apart from not-so-fine wine imbibed as I listened to a tense cricket semi-final, capped by the disappointment of Notts losing to Surrey by 4 runs).

Got my instant karma when I looked at the puzzle again on Tuesday morning, ready to post, and realised I’d only looked at the traintrack numbers for columns, not rows (and even then one column was wrong!) Gave it up as a bad job.

The one thing I would still say is: I don’t see why anyone who can solve Listener crosswords would feel the need to quibble about the definitions referred to in 28A. ‘Small farm’ and ‘home farm’ aren’t synonyms? For those of us who lack the specific local knowledge, this sounds like nit-picking. (Note - I’m not giving anything away and the closing date is upon us).

[icynorth]

Speaking as a relative newcomer here, but a seasoned online community contributor, I find this a very accommodating site for Listener fans who want to discuss the quality of a puzzle. If I were a compiler (and one day I may have the skills to be) I'd be grateful for the feedback on clues and constructions.

One of the key indicators of quality must be how long it takes to solve. People will have their own ideas about this, but I'd have thought around 6 hours of effort for a good solver might be a fair target to aim at. I don't know at what time the Friday Club can get started, but if they complete on Friday afternoon, then it clearly hasn't been too tough. Maybe Friday night/Saturday morning is average? It would be interesting to go back through this forum and analyse the dates/times of the first posting in each case.