Should we allow Sharia law courts?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....ders-close-ranks.html

Are the Ministry of Justice right to abandoned an inquiry into the rise of secretive Sharia councils?

Will this decision give rise to an increase in these illegal Sharia councils?

[notasyoungasiwas]

She's only been insulted because she in turn has been insulting. And OK she didn't actually say 'sod off' but that's what she implied.

[Safiya]

*they don't all abide by our laws*

neither do a hell of a lot of people born and bred here who can trace their families way way back as british citizens..... oh wait a minute..... hasnt england been invaded a few times in the past.... maybe its the 'foreign' blood in em that makes them break the law :rollseyes:

[KARL]

Why should sharia law be specifically made illegal - if that were necessary then the list of laws making things illegal would grow to totally unmanageable proportions faster than you can say Boo. Sharia law is only a religious tenet observed by some muslims, it has no legal binding/effect in the UK or in lots of countries worldwide, any more than christian doctrines outside the legislature. Those who want to get married in church are not any more married than those who are not when all concerned are married by civil procedure. I am sick of a lot of common British practices not required by law but I do not come close to insisting they should be outlawed. None of these adversely affect me or anyone else apart from being confronted by them in the course of daily life and being reminded how you yourself would not do likewise. I dislike them for my personal puposes but I am not prejudiced against those who exhibit them - live and let live. Those who would insist I join in are the ones whom I would take issue with, and also those who want to restrict the oddballs into conformity.

[vulcan]

So do you Safiya view muslims coming to live in this country as an invasion ?

[Bambiagain]

Isn't the main point here that the UK has its own existing law and that those who break it will be dealt with according to the law OF THE COUNTRY. Sharia law is not UK law. In countries where Sharia law applies, people who break the law will be dealt with under the appropriate law of the country - Sharia law. But since it is not the law of the UK, then allowing it to be brought in is undermining the law of the land.

[boxtops]

As I understand it, Sharia law is only convened in this country to settle domestic matters - divorce, financial affairs, etc. - but UK law has the final say in for instance criminal matters etc. I know several people who are married by Islamic weddings, some have had them formalised at a register office, others haven't. The distinction to those who haven't seems to me quite similar to people who live with long-term partners and count themselves as married. Doc's comment is offensive - there are many Muslim people in the UK (both born here, or converts) who have nowhere to "sod off too" - they belong here.

[argorstran]

There are loads of "out of court" settlements made in the UK . If the analogy of Sharia law was made as an "out of court" settlement to which both/all parties willingly agree , would you find it so objectionable ?
(rather than making the analogy of Sharia law being something foreign and illegal )

[Safiya]

*That about says it all according to Safiya, if we disagree to accept Sharia law, then all us Brits. should 'sod off' and leave our country to them.

Charming. *

oh there you go again putting words into peoples mouths... i didnt once say that... i was talking to ron about marriage.... look at rons answer.... he only mentioned marriage .... i assumed by his sick and tired and setting up their own rules he was referring solely to marriage.... my mate said the other day she was sick of paying massive taxes on everything...i said exactly the same to her....

tbh aog i dont give a flying fig whether the uk accepts or doesnt accept Sharia Law and i think anyone who seriously thinks it will really needs their heads examining.... i also really dont care if you disagree to Sharia Law, I wouldnt tell you to sod off if you did.... personally id love you to leave england just for the hell of it :D

[DTCwordfan]

because Sharia law is all embracing and is a conceptual law just as Common Law is - therefore it makes up the law system of several countries, as does Common Law (not least the US minus Louisiana, and a lot of Commonwealth countries.

I could go on and on - but it impacts on Commercial law, for example the notion of interest, the principles of negligence and liability. It impacts not only on family law, religious law, criminal law...........

In that it is not a law system that the UK would embrace. If someone chooses to live to its principle tenets (largely based on Islami belief), then fine, and the same is true with Bhuddism, Judaism and all the rest - but with a caveat.

Common Law is our (UNDERSCORED) system and that must override Sharia principles in our countries, when there is a dispute that needs judicial intervention.

[daisya]

I see it like that too Bambi. I am totally against giving into other cultures coming here to live just because of their religion or culture, I'm sorry but wherever one goes to live in the world if it's not your country of birth, you have to abide by their laws and (though most don't) it's own culture. At least one thing we've given in to here is the wearing of the Kirpan for Sikhs because it's a symbol of their religion. However, others who reside in this country are not allowed to carry any offensive weapon on our person (or in our cars) because it is against the law! The Kirpan could be used as an offensive weapon yet it's allowed to be carried here, so once again, our soft option country gives in to the "minority", one law for one and another law for others. THAT'S what I am appalled with in this country and we are stupid enough to let it happen and give no opposition to it.

[boxtops]

..and I believe that it does, DT - there is (IMO) lots of accommodation going on. It's been many since since the major banks have run Islamic accounts for those of their customers who don't wish to accrue interest, and Islamic mortgages are commonplace with the big lenders. It doesn't affect most people, nor should it.

[KARL]

If I dream up some code of law and, say, my family and friends volunteer to live by it then that is up to those of us who accept it but we cannot enforce it if/when anyone refuses to conform. The same applies to sharia law in the UK and elsewhere where it is not part of the (official) legislature - these "personal" laws are meaningless before any (official) court in the land. Any private court can be established and run but conformity would/could only be voluntary, just like you choose to follow the rules of a club - none of the clubs are illegal so long as they do not break official law. You can be a member and fulfill the rules/laws of your club (rotary, lions, christian, muslim, etc., etc.) and still be a law abiding citizen of your country - but not if the club sets requirements contrary to official law. Banning (a private) sharia law and courts which do not contravene the official laws of the country amounts to restricting the freedoms afforded to other private groups. Sharia law is not and will not be enforceable in the UK so long as it is not part of the legislature and under those circumstances it is pointless talking about banning it. You might as well set up a tribunal to monitor and prevent the formation of any private group that chooses to adopt some form of commonality, such as clubs from religious groups to ballroom dancing. Whether it should be adopted as the law of the land is a completely different and separate question.

[rov1100]

I wonder if you can get legal aid under Shariah Law? Probably not! I wonder if it takes precedence over EH human rights Laws. Probably! Then that will be a good thing as our courts seem so busy from claimants, mostly Muslim, who want human rights to either stay in the country or claim some compensation.

Lets stick their noses in it and see what protection Shariah Law gives them!

[Safiya]

*Yes AOG the sheer arrogance is so typical *

so typical of what?

*Bet you get better protection under English and Welsh law than you would under Sharia when it comes to divorce concerning a woman. *

LOL.... i came out of my very legal in the uk marriage with practically what i went into it with ...... i have a wedding certificate/contract upstairs which tells me exactly what i will get if i get divorced from my very not legal Islamic marriage...... p!sses all over the former believe me

You are right Muslim men can have 4 wives....but they have to be able to provide for all of them.... however before getting married you can agree to what you want including no more wives ....

[DTCwordfan]

Yes and that is the underlying point here which all seem to be agreeing on - I think.

If two parties agree to a financial or family/marital deal or "membership" conditions etc, then yes that is effective between them, as long as it does not impact on the law of the land, in our case Common Law. If such an agreement runs foul of a third party, then Common Law becomes the law of precedent, each case being assessed on the balance of its merits or otherwise, if not predetermined by a written law.

So yes mortgage deals with no interest percentage can be struck but with the notional "interest" being determined by an absolute amount, a zakat - which could be for the term of the deal or paid at determined intervals.

I must say that on the marriage front, doesn't a marriage have to undergo a civic registration to be legally valid in the UK - for a whole range of reasons from tax to benefits and all the rest.....

[boxtops]

Agree with safiya, the four-wife arrangement is only permitted if the man can provide households for each of them, or a similar arrangement, and it's far less usual these days.
Did you know that this permission started in the 7th century AD, after a major battle, when so many men were killed that there were thousands of women and children with no means of income - so it was decreed that a man could marry more than one wife in order that some of these women could find security to raise their children. It was a pragmatic solution at the time.

[Safiya]

*So do you Safiya view muslims coming to live in this country as an invasion ? *

no

sorry for the amount of posts on your thread aog... except for DT im just answering people who 'spoke' to me...... 'arrogant' i may be seen as... ignorant im not ....

[notasyoungasiwas]

The sheer arrogance of ethnic minorities in this country who think they have the divine right to do what they like without acknowledging our laws and our way of life because they are afforded to by the human rights act, which is quoted at ever opportunity!

[boxtops]

Last para DT - yes, otherwise the marriage has no legal standing under UK law, but as safiya says, if that doesn't matter to a couple, they don't have to do it.

[daisya]

Well said notsoyoung!