This Will Be Interesting.

[sir.prize]

Last week seven members of a Telford group were jailed for up to 18 years instant custody with an additional eight-year period on licence after release.

Today an Oxfordshire child sex trafficking ring has been convicted.

Hopefully they will be suitably imprisoned.

Or will our justice sytstem once more show inconsistency in sentences?

[jim360]

Hopefully they will be too. But on what basis is there the charge of inconsistency? Without knowing full details of either of the cases I can still say with confidence that they will be different, and that this will likely lead to different sentences. This is consistent with the law having general rules that are then applied to particular cases, taking into account the specific circumstances. While this may lead to "inconsistencies" in the surface, is it really that inconsistent?

There are benefits I suppose, to a system of "Murder? - 40 years", etc., in that at least it would be simpler to follow. But there are different types of murder, different causes, motivations, extenuating circumstances, and so on, that could all affect the case. The sentencing, I hope, takes this into account. Hence the "inconsistencies" are only between cases, not in the system as a whole.

[society]

Tetjam, I missed your blunt and truthful replies. lol
Do keep your replies kosher as I like reading them, and I don't want to see you suspended. :)

(sorry Sir.prize)

[jno]

they were mostly British Pakistanis, so they will probably get six months each in luxury cells with HDTV.

[sir.prize]

society: No problem at all.

jim360: I understanding your reasoning. However we shouldn't be talking about inconsistencies. You mention murder. Murder does not have 'specifics'. Murder is murder is murder. Sod the fact that there are different circumstances. Someone has died as a result of another's actions.

I go along with a system that says "Murder? - 40 years".

Back to the issue of the two gangs of 'beasts' that I refer to above; the Oxford group (who committed sex abuse against young girls) should be treated no differently than the Telford group (who committed sex abuse against young girls).

I bet they are pleased they don''t have to answer to Sharia Law.

[jim360]

What about the difference between a murder of passion and a murder of cold-blooded intent? They should be distinguished.

In general I agree with you, and hope that the sentences received are similar. But I also have to trust that the Judge understands the law, and the case, far better than I do.

[jno]

various factors will be taken into account - number of girls involved, length of time it went on and so forth. This may result in different sentences, and that would be okay with me.

Another case where police and social services were told (six times) and failed to do anything, I see.

[ChillDoubt]

they were mostly British Pakistanis, so they will probably get six months each in luxury cells with HDTV.
---------------------------
Not forgetting too their specific dietary (dictated by religion) requirements.

[jim360]

My philosophy is that dogs and horse are different species, and that the same can't really be said of British people and Pakistanis.

[sir.prize]

jim360. Strictly speaking you are right. But do you honestly believe it?

In a 'comparative' world I believe I am right with my animal analogy!

[jim360]

Comments like that really shouldn't go unchallenged. What a disgraceful thing to say.

[sir.prize]

jim360. For goodness sake; read it as it was intended. Not your first jerk reaction.

If you are offended, simply report it and have the thread removed.

[chrisgel]

Jim360 - There must come a time when even you must question how much leeway is granted to organised groups of men who prostitute vulnerable young girls for a prolonged period.
This country cannot keep burying it's head in the sand for fear of upsetting a religion and,yes before anybody jumps in to say it's not all of them it's just a few, that really isn't justification for not taking a stand.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-17471806

[jno]

This country cannot keep burying it's head in the sand for fear of upsetting a religion

Police and social services fell short, but have you any evidence that this was the reason why?

[chrisgel]

jno - I think it's a bit too early to tell yet as the details haven't come out. As you yourself said //Another case where police and social services were told (six times) and failed to do anything//
Why do you think that they failed to do anything in this case and in the Rochdale case and in the Derby case.
IMO the reason was that they didn't want to disturb their precious "social cohesion"

[chrisgel]

And I'm not the only one who thinks this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9263006/Rochdale-grooming-case-Trevor-Phillips-insists-race-relevant.html

[jim360]

It's certainly difficult to explain away the fact that these two sex abuse rings were mainly -- entirely? -- run by and used by Pakistani men. But on general principles it cannot be entirely a race issue. Pakistanis are, after all, humans like us, which means that they are equally capable of being human. Well, didn't that sound horribly patronising?

There is anyway no reason to assume that all sex abusers are going to be Pakistani men, or that all such men are going to be involved in child abuse. Why there is such a large overlap I can't possibly say.

Perhaps it's a case of fish out of water, of people not fitting in, or choosing not to fit in, to society. If you are alienated from that society you can very quickly forget that the people in it are humans like you. And then they do become commodities to be traded. It happened in reverse, for example, when we occupied India and parts of Africa. Then it was our turn, at times, to treat the locals are commodities to be used, and traded.

[sir.prize]

jim360 - a lot of what you say makes perfect sense. But from a slightly ifferent angle, it is totally wrong to be racist or condone racism.

Therefore I find it disgustingly degrading that the ideals of these Pakistani offenders is formed from the belief that it is not wrong to defile white girls. They do not abuse their own race - just the white girls.

That action in itself, choosing a difference race, IS racism.

Of course, there are sex offenders in all races.

Recent cases have proven that these Pakistani sex offending groups are prolific, and with that knowledge hopefully the authorities will be more vigilant and take action earlier.

[jim360]

If they are only picking on white girls, then that probably adds weight to my argument. Well, I say my argument, but I'm pretty sure I heard it elsewhere first really.

Anyway, we have to understand it to deal with it. Catching such people after the fact is far too late to repair the damage they have done to these girls' lives, but is still essential. If there is any reason to believe that the police have delayed investigations that has to be looked into and stopped. But we also will have to try, if possible, to tackler this from the other end. Why are these men so disaffected? And how can we stop them from turning away from society?