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Malaysia Airliner Crashes In East Ukraine
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when they find out who did it can any expert on here tell me the difference between this incident and the one that the americans shot down
remembering that only an idiot would mistake a fighter for a passenger plane
from the web
> Though the Soviets did it first, the US also once accidentally downed a civilian airliner carrying about 300 people on it. On July 3, 1988, as the Iran-Iraq war was winding down, US and Iranian ships were involved in some skirmishes in the Persian Gulf. An Airbus A300 took off from a nearby airport, one which was used for both military and civilian purposes. An American cruiser, the USS Vincennes, mistook the plane for an F-14, an American fighter plane that we had sold to Iran before the 1979 revolution, and launched two missiles, downing the plane and killing everyone on board.
President Reagan called the event a "terrible human tragedy," and stated "we deeply regret any loss of life." Iran's UN ambassador condemned the action as ''criminal act,'' an ''atrocity'' and a ''massacre," while the US insisted it was a misunderstanding. Then-Vice President George H.W. Bush called the idea the US would have shot down the plane deliberately "offensive and absurd," and argued that allowing passenger flights out of an airport as a naval battle was underway was irresponsible of the Iranians. "They allowed a civilian aircraft loaded with passengers to proceed on a path over a warship engaged in battle,'' Bush said. ''That was irresponsible and a tragic error.''
Iran sued the United States in the International Court of Justice, and the American government eventually agreed in 1996 to pay $61.8 million ($93.7 million today) to the families of victims; notably, that amount was 1/30th of the compensation the US secured from Libya for victims of the Lockerbie plane bombing that same year. The US government has never apologized for shooting down the plane, beyond Reagan's initial statement, and Max Fisher has noted the event contributes to Iranian mistrust of American intentions to this day.
remembering that only an idiot would mistake a fighter for a passenger plane
from the web
> Though the Soviets did it first, the US also once accidentally downed a civilian airliner carrying about 300 people on it. On July 3, 1988, as the Iran-Iraq war was winding down, US and Iranian ships were involved in some skirmishes in the Persian Gulf. An Airbus A300 took off from a nearby airport, one which was used for both military and civilian purposes. An American cruiser, the USS Vincennes, mistook the plane for an F-14, an American fighter plane that we had sold to Iran before the 1979 revolution, and launched two missiles, downing the plane and killing everyone on board.
President Reagan called the event a "terrible human tragedy," and stated "we deeply regret any loss of life." Iran's UN ambassador condemned the action as ''criminal act,'' an ''atrocity'' and a ''massacre," while the US insisted it was a misunderstanding. Then-Vice President George H.W. Bush called the idea the US would have shot down the plane deliberately "offensive and absurd," and argued that allowing passenger flights out of an airport as a naval battle was underway was irresponsible of the Iranians. "They allowed a civilian aircraft loaded with passengers to proceed on a path over a warship engaged in battle,'' Bush said. ''That was irresponsible and a tragic error.''
Iran sued the United States in the International Court of Justice, and the American government eventually agreed in 1996 to pay $61.8 million ($93.7 million today) to the families of victims; notably, that amount was 1/30th of the compensation the US secured from Libya for victims of the Lockerbie plane bombing that same year. The US government has never apologized for shooting down the plane, beyond Reagan's initial statement, and Max Fisher has noted the event contributes to Iranian mistrust of American intentions to this day.
It's one tale of woe after another but this is unbelievably harsh:
An Australian couple, Irene Burrows and George Burrows, have lost family members in both of the Malaysia Airlines disasters this year. Their son and daughter-in-law (Rodney and Mary) went missing with flight MH370. Now they have lost more family members with MH17: their son-in-law's daughter and her husband, Maree and Albert Rizk.
An Australian couple, Irene Burrows and George Burrows, have lost family members in both of the Malaysia Airlines disasters this year. Their son and daughter-in-law (Rodney and Mary) went missing with flight MH370. Now they have lost more family members with MH17: their son-in-law's daughter and her husband, Maree and Albert Rizk.
From the BBC Live blog again:
Three siblings from Perth were on the plane, Australian media report. Mo, Evie and Otis Maslin, aged 12, 10 and 8, were seen off by their parents in Amsterdam before boarding the flight with their grandfather Nick Norris, Melbourne's Herald Sun reports.
Also, the UN says there were a total of 80 children on board.
What an absolute nightmare for all concerned.
Three siblings from Perth were on the plane, Australian media report. Mo, Evie and Otis Maslin, aged 12, 10 and 8, were seen off by their parents in Amsterdam before boarding the flight with their grandfather Nick Norris, Melbourne's Herald Sun reports.
Also, the UN says there were a total of 80 children on board.
What an absolute nightmare for all concerned.
Mad Vlad puts his own inimitable spin on matters:
Russian President Vladimir Putin said responsibility for the crash rests with "the country in whose airspace the plane was in when it crashed".
So, if a violent trespasser tries to occupy your property and in the process pulls a gun and accidentally shoots an innocent passer-by, you are responsible.
He really is a nasty piece of work.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said responsibility for the crash rests with "the country in whose airspace the plane was in when it crashed".
So, if a violent trespasser tries to occupy your property and in the process pulls a gun and accidentally shoots an innocent passer-by, you are responsible.
He really is a nasty piece of work.
Disgusting indeed Chilldoubt.
Even by Putin's standards those comments are outrageous. Little wonder Ukraine's PM has just called them all "***"
British folks feeling rightly outraged at the deaths of Brits and others can get their own back in a very small way by changing their energy supplier, if applicable, from British Gas, whose parent company Centrica from October of this year will be buying gas from Putin's Gazprom. And make it very clear why you are leaving. We left and got a much cheaper deal anyway.
Even by Putin's standards those comments are outrageous. Little wonder Ukraine's PM has just called them all "***"
British folks feeling rightly outraged at the deaths of Brits and others can get their own back in a very small way by changing their energy supplier, if applicable, from British Gas, whose parent company Centrica from October of this year will be buying gas from Putin's Gazprom. And make it very clear why you are leaving. We left and got a much cheaper deal anyway.
Chilled
Putin and the responsibility lies with the country where it crashed.....
I have to say I thought he meant the responsibility to investigate, and co-ordinate rescue - the (intentional) irony being Ukraine does not have control over the DNR but (we think) Russia ( wh it says it doesnt )
I have to thank you and Ichkeria for keepin us up to date whilst the Beeb shamefully led with statements like ' all we know is it hasnt landed - oh and its raining bodies somewhere in Ukraine but we are not sure if THAT is true....'
Putin and the responsibility lies with the country where it crashed.....
I have to say I thought he meant the responsibility to investigate, and co-ordinate rescue - the (intentional) irony being Ukraine does not have control over the DNR but (we think) Russia ( wh it says it doesnt )
I have to thank you and Ichkeria for keepin us up to date whilst the Beeb shamefully led with statements like ' all we know is it hasnt landed - oh and its raining bodies somewhere in Ukraine but we are not sure if THAT is true....'
The twisted logic of the man, eh, Chilldoubt?
A one word change, too. Responsibilty for the -investigation- usually falls on the nation where an unfortunate incident occurs. Responsibility for a crash depends on who carried out what causative action and there's no evading that. They need to man up and admit their mistake.
I noticed on the news one possible cause, filmed being driven on a tranporter truck, part covered with a tarpaulin, east towards the Russian border.
p.s. I retract my earlier 'ignoramus' remark. Chances are they look at a radar blip and make a snap decision on no better a basis than that. No one steps outside for a quick check with binoculars. Careless. Not noticing contrails on a daily basis - negligent.
A one word change, too. Responsibilty for the -investigation- usually falls on the nation where an unfortunate incident occurs. Responsibility for a crash depends on who carried out what causative action and there's no evading that. They need to man up and admit their mistake.
I noticed on the news one possible cause, filmed being driven on a tranporter truck, part covered with a tarpaulin, east towards the Russian border.
p.s. I retract my earlier 'ignoramus' remark. Chances are they look at a radar blip and make a snap decision on no better a basis than that. No one steps outside for a quick check with binoculars. Careless. Not noticing contrails on a daily basis - negligent.
There's lots more where that came from Peter P.
For example transcript (Russian only) of terrorists discussing on July 17, the arrival and reception of the Buk missiles, and video footage apparently showing a missile carrier heading back to Russian border with one of the three missiles it holds on its roof missing.
No doubt all US-EU-Ukrainian forgeries :-)
Also, interestingly, a Russian military analyst, commenting on reports that the plane had changed course southwards at the last minute, suggests that it may have been mistaken by the terrorists for a Ukraine air force plane heading to relieve a Ukrainian military unit surrounded the enemy. What is interesting about that is that he says the radar signature of the Boeing 777 is of a similar signature, which suggests that there were Russian military personnel involved because it is hard to believe that the terrorists would have had the radar operating capability.
For example transcript (Russian only) of terrorists discussing on July 17, the arrival and reception of the Buk missiles, and video footage apparently showing a missile carrier heading back to Russian border with one of the three missiles it holds on its roof missing.
No doubt all US-EU-Ukrainian forgeries :-)
Also, interestingly, a Russian military analyst, commenting on reports that the plane had changed course southwards at the last minute, suggests that it may have been mistaken by the terrorists for a Ukraine air force plane heading to relieve a Ukrainian military unit surrounded the enemy. What is interesting about that is that he says the radar signature of the Boeing 777 is of a similar signature, which suggests that there were Russian military personnel involved because it is hard to believe that the terrorists would have had the radar operating capability.
Thx ick - one Russian commentator said sort of - for chrissakes do you realise how complicated these things are to operate ? 4 lorries for a start.
without realising it sort of implicated his own lot....
I noted also ironically that some of the people searching in the sun-flower field were 'off duty miners ' and recalled that Genl Bez said that the Kazakh miners had brought down a plane. It is important to provide a complete service er from the cradle to the grave .....
without realising it sort of implicated his own lot....
I noted also ironically that some of the people searching in the sun-flower field were 'off duty miners ' and recalled that Genl Bez said that the Kazakh miners had brought down a plane. It is important to provide a complete service er from the cradle to the grave .....
I really need to type faster. That's the fourth or fifth time I've been pipped this week.
@EDDIE51
thanks for linking to the pprune thread. Lots of interesting information there. The only outlandish element being around page 12/13 where someone claimed MH17 was being escorted by Ukrainian military up until 3 minutes before it was struck. This doesn't stand up as it would gift an excuse to the shooters.
Compare with the witness who said he "heard some firing/shooting", "then a bang" (but that could have been someone nearby with an AK).
@EDDIE51
thanks for linking to the pprune thread. Lots of interesting information there. The only outlandish element being around page 12/13 where someone claimed MH17 was being escorted by Ukrainian military up until 3 minutes before it was struck. This doesn't stand up as it would gift an excuse to the shooters.
Compare with the witness who said he "heard some firing/shooting", "then a bang" (but that could have been someone nearby with an AK).
// hypo Compare with the witness who said he "heard some firing/shooting", "then a bang" (but that could have been someone nearby with an AK).//
I couldnt work that out - he cdnt hear a bang then the thing fall out from 30 000 even if it were supersonic - and terminal velocity in air is around 200 mph
I couldnt work that out - he cdnt hear a bang then the thing fall out from 30 000 even if it were supersonic - and terminal velocity in air is around 200 mph
@PeterPedant
I can't speak for the loudness of a SAM warhead but shellfire on the ground certainly can be heard from 10km or more away and that's with hedges, hills and buildings in the way. From overhead there are no obstructions to sound.
When I hear an airliner (at cruise alt) overhead, what I can see of it is well ahead of the sound. In the absense of any sense of scale, I'd reference it in terms of time gap - call it 30 seconds.
Someone on pprune asked how come someone had a camera(phone) at the ready to film the impact and there's your answer - they see something happen up high first and it takes a few minutes for wreckage to drift down.
Incidentally the clips with smoke on the horizon all seem to show whitish haze or cloud in the background. No upward angled shots to show cloud cover at altitude (ie binocs might have been of no help in target discrimination).
I can't speak for the loudness of a SAM warhead but shellfire on the ground certainly can be heard from 10km or more away and that's with hedges, hills and buildings in the way. From overhead there are no obstructions to sound.
When I hear an airliner (at cruise alt) overhead, what I can see of it is well ahead of the sound. In the absense of any sense of scale, I'd reference it in terms of time gap - call it 30 seconds.
Someone on pprune asked how come someone had a camera(phone) at the ready to film the impact and there's your answer - they see something happen up high first and it takes a few minutes for wreckage to drift down.
Incidentally the clips with smoke on the horizon all seem to show whitish haze or cloud in the background. No upward angled shots to show cloud cover at altitude (ie binocs might have been of no help in target discrimination).
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