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A Second Referendum Anyone?
Nigel thinks it might be a good idea, to send off Tony Blair "to obscurity".
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@new judge
First of all try getting your facts right I never said anything about numpties that was somebody else, if you can't even get that right, perhaps you been "on the sauce".
as for your point regarding the stopping at customs maybe not all will be stopped but many will causing delays
without any infrastructure how do you think is going to be solved you think a magic fairy will come along and do it all.
a lot of firms are now using the ordering just-in-time system where parts arrive as needed if they're going to be stuck in customs for hours the whole production will come to a halt with trucks stuck in customs
Car manufacturers have already pointed this out.
But perhapa you know better than the manufacturers.Well never mind the magic Brexit fairy will come along and sort it all out
First of all try getting your facts right I never said anything about numpties that was somebody else, if you can't even get that right, perhaps you been "on the sauce".
as for your point regarding the stopping at customs maybe not all will be stopped but many will causing delays
without any infrastructure how do you think is going to be solved you think a magic fairy will come along and do it all.
a lot of firms are now using the ordering just-in-time system where parts arrive as needed if they're going to be stuck in customs for hours the whole production will come to a halt with trucks stuck in customs
Car manufacturers have already pointed this out.
But perhapa you know better than the manufacturers.Well never mind the magic Brexit fairy will come along and sort it all out
Yes, apologies, ro. I'm so used to being referred to as a numpty (and worse) for being one of 17m-odd folk with the same ideas I often forget who does it.
So, back to the matter in hand. As I said, it is business people who make things work, despite governments' best efforts to stand in their way. The rest of the EU runs a trade surplus with the UK of over £80bn a year. Germany alone accounts for more than £25bn of that surplus. If you really think that German businesses will see that trade jeopardised just because a few politicians suggest there should be customs houses where there have been none for over 40 years you must be very much taken in by Project Fear.
So, back to the matter in hand. As I said, it is business people who make things work, despite governments' best efforts to stand in their way. The rest of the EU runs a trade surplus with the UK of over £80bn a year. Germany alone accounts for more than £25bn of that surplus. If you really think that German businesses will see that trade jeopardised just because a few politicians suggest there should be customs houses where there have been none for over 40 years you must be very much taken in by Project Fear.
“…if we leave the customs union there simply is no other choice there has to be Customs controls !”
Indeed. Nobody has suggested otherwise. But there’s a significant difference between the customs controls that I (and probably most business people as well as, if they would admit the truth, most politicians) have in mind and yours. This is how you first raised this issue:
“…if we leave there going to be a need for massive infrastructure costing Millions if not billions , extra custom Staff, Customs Halls Lorry parks,etc.”
There are many models of customs controls between the EU and neighbouring non-member nations. None require the massive infrastructure and facilities you seem to suggest will be necessary. Throughout recent history the UK has been littered with doomsayers prophesying Armageddon whenever any changes are suggested. Few, if any of them have turned out to be correct. So it will be with Brexit (however “hard” our departure may be). Life will go on; there will not be cabbages rotting on British farms; there will not be queues of lorries on the M20 and France’s A26 waiting for customs clearance; we will not run out of nuclear fuel; we will not run short of medicines; there will still be flights between the UK and the remaining EU countries. In short, businesses will find a way to persuade their governments not to be so stupid as to stand in the way of trade. In particular, EU nations who, collectively, enjoy a vast trade surplus with the UK are not going to see that surplus wither away because of politicians. It ain’t gonna happen.
Whilst it’s nice to see you joining EDDIE51 (AB’s chief mourner of the UK’s demise) in the funeral cortège, at the same time I’m a bit bored with people suggesting – for various reasons – that we’re all doomed. Best thing to do is wait and see.
Indeed. Nobody has suggested otherwise. But there’s a significant difference between the customs controls that I (and probably most business people as well as, if they would admit the truth, most politicians) have in mind and yours. This is how you first raised this issue:
“…if we leave there going to be a need for massive infrastructure costing Millions if not billions , extra custom Staff, Customs Halls Lorry parks,etc.”
There are many models of customs controls between the EU and neighbouring non-member nations. None require the massive infrastructure and facilities you seem to suggest will be necessary. Throughout recent history the UK has been littered with doomsayers prophesying Armageddon whenever any changes are suggested. Few, if any of them have turned out to be correct. So it will be with Brexit (however “hard” our departure may be). Life will go on; there will not be cabbages rotting on British farms; there will not be queues of lorries on the M20 and France’s A26 waiting for customs clearance; we will not run out of nuclear fuel; we will not run short of medicines; there will still be flights between the UK and the remaining EU countries. In short, businesses will find a way to persuade their governments not to be so stupid as to stand in the way of trade. In particular, EU nations who, collectively, enjoy a vast trade surplus with the UK are not going to see that surplus wither away because of politicians. It ain’t gonna happen.
Whilst it’s nice to see you joining EDDIE51 (AB’s chief mourner of the UK’s demise) in the funeral cortège, at the same time I’m a bit bored with people suggesting – for various reasons – that we’re all doomed. Best thing to do is wait and see.
New Judge, I respect your legal opinions, and also your Leave whatever the consequences attitude, but when it comes to trade I'm not sure that you have a clue.
> Germany alone accounts for more than £25bn of that surplus. If you really think that German businesses will see that trade jeopardised
What has happened with us inside the EU is not a reliable indicator of what will happen once we're outside.
For a start, it is not German business that is doing the negotiating ... it is Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstadt and Barnier, who have already demonstrated that they value ideology over trade - a bit like yourself, NJ, but with a different ideology!
But even if we do consider trade ... suppose that the cost of trade between the EU and UK was increased equally in both directions. What would the outcome be?
People and businesses in the EU would have to find an alternative supplier elsewhere in the EU in order to remove that cost of trade. Could they? Probably, yes. There is not much that the UK produces that can't be produced elsewhere in the EU. So UK exports to the EU would decrease, a relatively large amount.
Businesses in the UK would have to find an alternative supplier elsewhere in the UK in order to remove that cost of trade. Could they? Probably not, no. There are lots of things produced in the EU that aren't currently produced in the UK. So UK imports from the EU will decrease, but relatively little. We may of couse choose to import from elsewhere, e.g. the USA, which will harm Europe as well as us. But still, we're harmed.
There are many good grounds for arguing against remaining in the EU, but trade is not one of them.
We can pray for a fantastic trade deal, equivalent to what we already
have, but nothing that has happened so far holds out much hope that this will happen. Quite the opposite in fact.
> Germany alone accounts for more than £25bn of that surplus. If you really think that German businesses will see that trade jeopardised
What has happened with us inside the EU is not a reliable indicator of what will happen once we're outside.
For a start, it is not German business that is doing the negotiating ... it is Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstadt and Barnier, who have already demonstrated that they value ideology over trade - a bit like yourself, NJ, but with a different ideology!
But even if we do consider trade ... suppose that the cost of trade between the EU and UK was increased equally in both directions. What would the outcome be?
People and businesses in the EU would have to find an alternative supplier elsewhere in the EU in order to remove that cost of trade. Could they? Probably, yes. There is not much that the UK produces that can't be produced elsewhere in the EU. So UK exports to the EU would decrease, a relatively large amount.
Businesses in the UK would have to find an alternative supplier elsewhere in the UK in order to remove that cost of trade. Could they? Probably not, no. There are lots of things produced in the EU that aren't currently produced in the UK. So UK imports from the EU will decrease, but relatively little. We may of couse choose to import from elsewhere, e.g. the USA, which will harm Europe as well as us. But still, we're harmed.
There are many good grounds for arguing against remaining in the EU, but trade is not one of them.
We can pray for a fantastic trade deal, equivalent to what we already
have, but nothing that has happened so far holds out much hope that this will happen. Quite the opposite in fact.
Elipsis; //For a start, it is not German business that is doing the negotiating ... it is Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstadt and Barnier, who have already demonstrated that they value ideology over trade -//
Yes, but the days of these parasites are numbered, people everywhere are waking up. Business will always be business and at the end of the day all businesses are nothing without customers.
Yes, but the days of these parasites are numbered, people everywhere are waking up. Business will always be business and at the end of the day all businesses are nothing without customers.
> the days of these parasites are numbered
Khandro, politicians ("parasites") on both sides are doing the negotiating.
Our politicians are trying to negotiate on trade, but that wasn't the basis of our vote for many people. People like yourself and New Judge, who voted on ideology not trade.
That was fine, but now you can hardly be surprised that the EU's politicians also have ideology at the top of their agenda, no matter what the consequences. It's exactly what you did when they didn't have a say. Now they do.
Khandro, politicians ("parasites") on both sides are doing the negotiating.
Our politicians are trying to negotiate on trade, but that wasn't the basis of our vote for many people. People like yourself and New Judge, who voted on ideology not trade.
That was fine, but now you can hardly be surprised that the EU's politicians also have ideology at the top of their agenda, no matter what the consequences. It's exactly what you did when they didn't have a say. Now they do.
“…suppose that the cost of trade between the EU and UK was increased equally in both directions.”
That’s the supposition upon which “Project Fear II” is based. There is no reason to believe that will be the case because businesses – particularly those in the EU – have too much to lose. Politicians are nominally in charge of these “negotiations”. Business leaders are actually in control (because they control the politicians).
“People like yourself and New Judge, who voted on ideology not trade.”
I voted on neither ideology nor trade. I voted to leave because I believed that the UK deserved to restore its status as an independent sovereign nation, untrammelled by unelected civil servants. The price of so-called “free trade” with the EU (which is actually nothing of the sort) is to surrender that sovereignty. For me, that is not for sale at any price so it matters not a jot to me whether a “deal” is cobbled together or not. In fact I’d far rather it wasn’t because any deal is bound to mean that the UK will remain captive to that wretched organisation.
As I keep on saying, after the dust has quickly settled, the absence of a “deal” will ultimately make very little difference to the success or otherwise of trade between the UK and the EU. Dozens of countries outside the EU trade perfectly successfully with it without any trade agreement whatsoever. They don’t pay a subscription for doing so; they don’t have to agree to a customs union; they don’t have to agree to freedom of movement between the EU and themselves. It is simply ludicrous to suggest that the UK cannot do likewise.
That’s the supposition upon which “Project Fear II” is based. There is no reason to believe that will be the case because businesses – particularly those in the EU – have too much to lose. Politicians are nominally in charge of these “negotiations”. Business leaders are actually in control (because they control the politicians).
“People like yourself and New Judge, who voted on ideology not trade.”
I voted on neither ideology nor trade. I voted to leave because I believed that the UK deserved to restore its status as an independent sovereign nation, untrammelled by unelected civil servants. The price of so-called “free trade” with the EU (which is actually nothing of the sort) is to surrender that sovereignty. For me, that is not for sale at any price so it matters not a jot to me whether a “deal” is cobbled together or not. In fact I’d far rather it wasn’t because any deal is bound to mean that the UK will remain captive to that wretched organisation.
As I keep on saying, after the dust has quickly settled, the absence of a “deal” will ultimately make very little difference to the success or otherwise of trade between the UK and the EU. Dozens of countries outside the EU trade perfectly successfully with it without any trade agreement whatsoever. They don’t pay a subscription for doing so; they don’t have to agree to a customs union; they don’t have to agree to freedom of movement between the EU and themselves. It is simply ludicrous to suggest that the UK cannot do likewise.
> I voted on neither ideology nor trade. I voted to leave because I believed that the UK deserved to restore its status as an independent sovereign nation, untrammelled by unelected civil servants.
That's ideology! I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But you voted on the basis you write there, ideology, and the effect on trade, as you also write there, made no difference.
Now we're trying to negotiate a trade deal but ideology is still heavily in play. Not so much ours now, but theirs.
That's ideology! I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But you voted on the basis you write there, ideology, and the effect on trade, as you also write there, made no difference.
Now we're trying to negotiate a trade deal but ideology is still heavily in play. Not so much ours now, but theirs.
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