Quite An Achievement In 5 Months.....
News0 min ago
Is This Just Scaremongering
Answers
IJKLM, // You are at liberty to disagree, but the facts remain: The leavers had the chance to get a better deal; they ran away from that opportunity.
09:14 Thu 29th Nov 2018
The Y2K comparison is bogus. Well before the deadline, large companies tested their systems against a 2000 date, and many went badly wrong. These companies then invested many man-years patching up or even re-writing the systems until they tested OK against 2000. I know, I was heavily involved.
But that doesn't make sensational press so most people didn't hear about it.
As regards the outcry against the Remainers, can I ask the Leavers whether, if the vote had gone narrowly the other way, would they then have all gone away and become Good Europeans - I doubt it.
Furthermore we've had 40 years of Leavers' persistent complaints, they can give it out, but are totally unable to accept it.
But that doesn't make sensational press so most people didn't hear about it.
As regards the outcry against the Remainers, can I ask the Leavers whether, if the vote had gone narrowly the other way, would they then have all gone away and become Good Europeans - I doubt it.
Furthermore we've had 40 years of Leavers' persistent complaints, they can give it out, but are totally unable to accept it.
Where I worked all the furnaces (10) due to the Christmas holiday shutdown were on standby that means that the computers regulate the heat to keep the metal molten ( a frozen furnace is close to scrap ). On new years eve 1999 ten maintenance electricians and six maintenance fitters were on site to monitor the furnace computers. Nothing happened the computers ran the furnaces as normal from midnight on wards but it was unknown whether they would or not.
"As regards the outcry against the Remainers, can I ask the Leavers whether, if the vote had gone narrowly the other way, would they then have all gone away and become Good Europeans - I doubt it."
Very probably not. I certainly wouldn't. I've never felt any particular affinity to things "European" (by which I mean the EU in this context). I have no desire for my country to be involved with the EU and because the majority of other people may have done (which, er, they didn't) would not have altered that.
However, what's more pertinent when considering a reversed outcome of the referendum is this: Mrs May has gone above and beyond the call of duty to agree a deal which, she says, satisfies everybody (i.e keeps us tied to the EU's wretched institutions to appease the Remainers). How much accommodation would have been made to appease the Leavers if the result had been 52:48 to Remain? (Answers on a very small postcard, please).
Very probably not. I certainly wouldn't. I've never felt any particular affinity to things "European" (by which I mean the EU in this context). I have no desire for my country to be involved with the EU and because the majority of other people may have done (which, er, they didn't) would not have altered that.
However, what's more pertinent when considering a reversed outcome of the referendum is this: Mrs May has gone above and beyond the call of duty to agree a deal which, she says, satisfies everybody (i.e keeps us tied to the EU's wretched institutions to appease the Remainers). How much accommodation would have been made to appease the Leavers if the result had been 52:48 to Remain? (Answers on a very small postcard, please).
Whenever I see Carney pontificating about how doomed we all are now, I can't help wondering what exactly his working day consists of. I know there's a monthly meeting where (inevitably) they decide to make no change to interest rates, but apart from that.....
From what I remember reading around the time of his appointment, his salary is about £800,000 per annum, and I'm pretty sure he gets his accommodation and utilities paid, plus a few paid return flights a year to his native Canada. Not bad, huh?
From what I remember reading around the time of his appointment, his salary is about £800,000 per annum, and I'm pretty sure he gets his accommodation and utilities paid, plus a few paid return flights a year to his native Canada. Not bad, huh?
As to NJ's post: who can say? But in fact we've already made a great deal of concessions to Leavers during our long membership. It shaped Maastricht, or at least the UK's part in it. Such concessions kept the UK out of the Schengen area and the Euro, fought hard to guarantee a hefty rebate from our contributions; it's led to the UK exercising its veto on other matters, too. It is likely that this pattern would have largely continued, and the UK would have at least taken some time to fully embrace the "European Project", if it ever did. Put another way, there would have constantly been gestures to placate the "leave" camp, some of them actually fairly reasonable, no doubt; even if we never left entirely, which is what Leavers want, then at least we would have kept one foot out of the door.
What's more, a close vote (albeit the other way) would have only given more momentum to Leavers; now they would know that they had a great deal of popular support, and no political party could ignore this without taking a hit. I would not be surprised to see Nigel Farage's stock actually increase -- Ukip could directly appeal to the "48%" and surge in popularity as the only party who might truly listen to them.
I'm running the risk of getting too caught up in this counter-factual speculation, but I suppose what I am saying is that (a) I don't think the Leave vote will ever have gone away, and (b) ironically, you might have even had a better time of it if you'd (narrowly) lost the vote. Whether you agree with me on this or not, what should be becoming clear by now is that leaving in this manner, at this time, with these political leaders, is not going to be even close to delivering what you wanted. Would it have really been such a blow if you'd lost, but had the chance to lick your wounds, carry on the fight, and maybe be properly ready for next time?
Instead, you've won the vote, but nobody has seemed keen on sticking around to own that victory.
What's more, a close vote (albeit the other way) would have only given more momentum to Leavers; now they would know that they had a great deal of popular support, and no political party could ignore this without taking a hit. I would not be surprised to see Nigel Farage's stock actually increase -- Ukip could directly appeal to the "48%" and surge in popularity as the only party who might truly listen to them.
I'm running the risk of getting too caught up in this counter-factual speculation, but I suppose what I am saying is that (a) I don't think the Leave vote will ever have gone away, and (b) ironically, you might have even had a better time of it if you'd (narrowly) lost the vote. Whether you agree with me on this or not, what should be becoming clear by now is that leaving in this manner, at this time, with these political leaders, is not going to be even close to delivering what you wanted. Would it have really been such a blow if you'd lost, but had the chance to lick your wounds, carry on the fight, and maybe be properly ready for next time?
Instead, you've won the vote, but nobody has seemed keen on sticking around to own that victory.
The problem throughout is that we have had a cabinet who were mostly remainers and didn't and didn't want brexit, so they have done all they can to remain tied to the EU.
Only a few weeks back the EU treated May with contempt when she went to them with her plan, then within a short period she returns and signs a deal. To me it 'stinks' of a 'giveaway'.
Only a few weeks back the EU treated May with contempt when she went to them with her plan, then within a short period she returns and signs a deal. To me it 'stinks' of a 'giveaway'.
Davemano -- while it's clear that the damage predicted following a vote didn't materialise as extensively as predicted, there are still two points worth bearing in mind before dismissing the latest round of economic modelling.
Firstly, I've said this before and I'll say it again: the 2016 forecasts were (a) largely predicated on the assumption that the UK would have already left by now, any in any case the main results were on the outcome 15 years or so after the referendum. Since 15 years haven't passed, and we still haven't left, neither of these things is true. There's no scope, based on that, to dismiss the earlier predictions as scaremongering that have since been proven false. They have not.
Secondly, the updated analysis also demonstrates that there has already been an, albeit modest, impact of the Brexit decision. This can be seen most obviously in the value of the pound, which crashed instantly following the Leave vote and still hasn't recovered against most currencies, but GDP growth is also slightly lower overall than the Bank of England had projected would have been the case following a "remain" vote.
Put simply, there is no case for dismissing the Bank of England's analysis. It's economically sound, close to state-of-the-art, and certainly far more sophisticated than anything its critics can come out with.
Firstly, I've said this before and I'll say it again: the 2016 forecasts were (a) largely predicated on the assumption that the UK would have already left by now, any in any case the main results were on the outcome 15 years or so after the referendum. Since 15 years haven't passed, and we still haven't left, neither of these things is true. There's no scope, based on that, to dismiss the earlier predictions as scaremongering that have since been proven false. They have not.
Secondly, the updated analysis also demonstrates that there has already been an, albeit modest, impact of the Brexit decision. This can be seen most obviously in the value of the pound, which crashed instantly following the Leave vote and still hasn't recovered against most currencies, but GDP growth is also slightly lower overall than the Bank of England had projected would have been the case following a "remain" vote.
Put simply, there is no case for dismissing the Bank of England's analysis. It's economically sound, close to state-of-the-art, and certainly far more sophisticated than anything its critics can come out with.
Jim, //Brexiters caused this mess. Brexiters voted for it. //
No ... they didn't. From a purely cynical point of view it's quite amusing to see Remainers panicking and desperately attempting to apportion blame elsewhere now they've succeeding in their ambition of bu&&erring it up. Be careful what you wish for? Never a truer word ....
No ... they didn't. From a purely cynical point of view it's quite amusing to see Remainers panicking and desperately attempting to apportion blame elsewhere now they've succeeding in their ambition of bu&&erring it up. Be careful what you wish for? Never a truer word ....
Just out of pure interest how will you Brexiteers feel if everything does indeed crashing down spectacularly because of the way you voted? Will you reconsider the wisdom of your vote or will you just glory in the mess bragging about how the Dunkirk spirit will see us through like the plucky Brits we are?
Someone earlier mentioned Remainers having no shame, but I strongly suspect if the worst case scenario comes to pass it will be the Brexiteers giving us a run for our money in that department.
Someone earlier mentioned Remainers having no shame, but I strongly suspect if the worst case scenario comes to pass it will be the Brexiteers giving us a run for our money in that department.
Just to add a word of support for Jim...
The leavers have abandoned their voters and their responsibilities.
May was careful throughout her premeriership to have a cabinat balanced between leavers and remainers.
Each of the leavers has been offered the chance to do the negotiations.
Not one of them has taken on that challenge. Not one of them has offered any sensible alternative to the one on the table. Not one of them has done anything except moan and blame it all on the people who are 'messing it up'
You can interpret that how you like.
I interpret as each of them knowing that it was a poisoned chalice - there was no sensible deal that would deliver on the promises they made to the electorate. They chose instead to let May get a bad deal and then complain about it.
Why did they not want to take up the challenge? Im my view because there is no possible outcome that is beneficial to the UK, and they knew it.
The leavers have abandoned their voters and their responsibilities.
May was careful throughout her premeriership to have a cabinat balanced between leavers and remainers.
Each of the leavers has been offered the chance to do the negotiations.
Not one of them has taken on that challenge. Not one of them has offered any sensible alternative to the one on the table. Not one of them has done anything except moan and blame it all on the people who are 'messing it up'
You can interpret that how you like.
I interpret as each of them knowing that it was a poisoned chalice - there was no sensible deal that would deliver on the promises they made to the electorate. They chose instead to let May get a bad deal and then complain about it.
Why did they not want to take up the challenge? Im my view because there is no possible outcome that is beneficial to the UK, and they knew it.
Let's just get one more thing straight: this current situation isn't remotely close to anything a die-hard Remainer wanted. As far as I can see, we are still stuck to leaving, on terms that reflect literally exactly what we had feared, and that's assuming the *best* scenario! If this represents Remainer May's attempt to sabotage the process, then it's a rotten attempt because it ruins everyone's hopes. Not just Leavers; Remainers too could and should be disappointed and angered by this deal.
Stop pinning it on Remainers. They don't want this, any more than you do. We might have wanted other scenarios even less, but the current situation, where it seems that we must choose between this deal or no deal is, frankly, the equivalent of choosing between losing a hand or the entire arm.
Stop pinning it on Remainers. They don't want this, any more than you do. We might have wanted other scenarios even less, but the current situation, where it seems that we must choose between this deal or no deal is, frankly, the equivalent of choosing between losing a hand or the entire arm.
No, the truth is that Leavers have always preferred to heckle from the sidelines. When they were called on to step up and deliver what they have been shouting for, they refused. No conspiracy kept any of them out of office except their own incompetence, or lack of courage. Gove destroyed Johnson's hopes of being PM (thankfully for all), but then refused to himself; Leadsom never had a chance anyway, but she could at least have actually fought the campaign; Davis and others didn't even bother trying to get to No 10.
It's dishonest of Leavers to blame everyone else but the ones who started this whole process off in the first place. Hardly surprising, since who wants to blame oneself for the mess? But the truth hurts all the same. Remainers didn't want this; Remainers didn't ask for it; Remainers did not cause this.
It's dishonest of Leavers to blame everyone else but the ones who started this whole process off in the first place. Hardly surprising, since who wants to blame oneself for the mess? But the truth hurts all the same. Remainers didn't want this; Remainers didn't ask for it; Remainers did not cause this.
Jim, //Let's just get one more thing straight: this current situation isn't remotely close to anything a die-hard Remainer wanted. //
I know that ... and you know that .... but this is where the efforts of the Remainers to scupper the result of the referendum has taken us. No doubt whatsoever about that - and all the squiggling and squirming in the world doesn't alter it.
Sleep tight, Jim. ;o)
I know that ... and you know that .... but this is where the efforts of the Remainers to scupper the result of the referendum has taken us. No doubt whatsoever about that - and all the squiggling and squirming in the world doesn't alter it.
Sleep tight, Jim. ;o)
Yes Naomi, it was because of the way you voted. You were all blinded by nationalism and a desire to stick one up Europe, and YOU lot voted for it, not us. WE could all see the bloody obvious, which was something like this was bound to happen, and happen it has. Don't try to swing this onto us, this is your doing and your doing alone. The Brexiteers now just simply have no idea what to do, because there is nothing they can do to get a good deal, which was patently obvious from the start. Bunch of incompetent, self serving morons in Government all doing a lot of shouting but not one of them actually willing to make this better themselves.
And, finally, I stopped feeling successful the minute we lost this vote. What has happened since then is largely as I'd feared: namely, that the UK had no idea what it actually wanted from Brexit and wasn't going to be able to get it anyway. But it certainly isn't a winning feeling, watching our politicians tearing themselves apart, and the country with them.
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